93 [EB Series] What TA Leaders Actually Think About Employer Brand | Wak Solis (Deloitte)

[00:00:00] You're listening to VideoMy Pod's Employer Brand Series. I'm David Machucker and joining me for this very special Singapore edition is the wonderful co-host, Emma Lang. We're sitting down with incredible people shaping employer brand across the region to have honest conversations about what's working, what's not, and where to next for employer brand and recruitment marketing. Where's it all heading? There's a lot to learn from this part of the world in Singapore. Let's get into it.

[00:00:29] Welcome to the VideoMy Podcast Series where we go deep in employer brand. I'm David Machucker. I'm Emma Lang. And I'm Wak Solis. Wak, welcome. Really excited to have you. We're going to be unpacking the importance of employer brand and timing when it's right to start investing in employer brand. But before we do, do you mind if you tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure. I'm Wak. I have 20 plus years of doing talent acquisition.

[00:00:59] Plus. Mind a plus plus because I stopped counting after my 20th year. It's like age, right? So I've been doing this working with different industries from banking to professional services to BPO. And I feel that talent acquisition for me is both a personal and professional journey. Personal because I do feel that with the work that I'm in, I'm generating employment.

[00:01:28] At first, I started my career in the Philippines. It was really generating a lot of employment for my, for the rest of the Filipinos. And I felt like it was a personal crusade for me. It's like paying forward. But at the same time, I also felt that my role professionally is adding value to the business. People is the core of any organization, whether you're selling a product. Preach. I love it.

[00:01:58] So true. At the end of the day, it's people that makes your business work. Or people could also make your business fail. So for me, it's not only filling in seats. It's making sure that I have an impact to the growth of the organization. I love the purpose. It's so true. And today, where are you today? And what are you doing?

[00:02:25] So I'm a regional head for talent acquisition for Deloitte, Southeast Asia, concentrating on technology and transformation. So I have to say that I've rebuilt the organization. When I say organization, I'm referring to the talent organization team, rebuilt it and evolved through the years. I've been with the organization for six years.

[00:02:52] And in my role also in talent acquisition, I've seen a lot of movements, particularly after COVID. There was a big shift of the market space. It used to be always employer led. But after COVID, it was more of it's the candidates demanding. And they had more choices. They realized that, hey, I could actually work anywhere.

[00:03:20] I could be productive anywhere. So I think employer brand made a big impact also to the other organizations to make sure that there is a shift of how employers attract talent. So true. Well, what are your thoughts? Did you see the shift in COVID and the importance of employer brand? Absolutely. I think it's now really shifted how candidates approach employers and the questions they ask. It's not just around the comp package anymore.

[00:03:50] It's what else would I get out of working for you? You know, I will give you all of this. What do I get in return? Whether it's the flexibility, the culture, the leadership, the L&D. It could be a whole host of things. But candidates are now not more savvy, but they're more aware of what else they want to make sure they've got the quality life personally and professionally.

[00:04:11] And I think that goes really nicely to your function in TA because quite often you're the first human touchpoint on the employer brand. So they're doing the research. They found the roles. But then their first interaction, their feel of what it's like to work with the organization comes from you and your team. Yeah, I absolutely love the fact that we're talking to someone who is representing talent acquisition and looking at things more holistically.

[00:04:39] Because in the series that we've created so many episodes, we've had a lot of employee branders and recruit marketers. And I feel like understanding or being able to share how TA leaders think about employee brand, there's a lot of value there. And how do they get it right? Just off air, we were talking about your team and how employee brand is structured within your area.

[00:05:08] Do you mind if you give the listeners a bit of an insight into that? And that would be really helpful because surprisingly, a lot of people listening probably find themselves in a very similar situation. Employer brand goes hand in hand with talent acquisition. I don't think that we will be able to attract talent without the help of employer brand. It should be embedded in the experience of attracting candidates.

[00:05:37] But employer brand could also mean social media. It could mean events, you know, partnerships with different universities. It could mean partnerships with professional organizations. But from the area of talent acquisition, I think employer brand is mainly candidate experience. Yes. The clarity of what you communicate to candidates in terms of the role.

[00:06:06] Clarity in terms of the expectations throughout the process. And also clarity in terms of the timeline. Because at the end of the day, an individual will feel attached to the brand because they had a good feeling. And the consistency in doing that is key. Now, how does it interlay with employer brand? A number of things.

[00:06:34] The creation of could be templates, could be scripts, employer brand, speaking to our employees, doing a temperature check, going back to talent acquisition. But talent acquisition should also partner with a business. This is one of the things that I keep on telling my team. The business thinks of hiring 5% of the time. Because 95% of the time, it's money.

[00:07:04] It's how to expand the business. It's how to grow the business. So when you tell them the process, they would be deaf. They don't want to listen to you. They would just say, I want someone that I could hire who could perform the job. But what the hiring managers are missing right now is the market has evolved. Candidates have choices.

[00:07:29] And candidates just look at each company and say, hmm, this one's the same level. But the differentiator is the experience. I do feel that recruiters, employer brand is doing a great job in attracting. But there will come a time that that experience would change if the business is not aligned. So what's mostly impactful that you've seen that creates that differentiation?

[00:07:58] So number one, it's making sure that on the onset, it's very clear to the recruiter and the hiring manager who we are hiring. Because there are managers who would say, I like to get this talent in Singapore. But you know that this talent is not in Singapore. Okay. So qualification is really important. Qualification, fit for the role, and affordability. Okay. It's also important because at the end of the day, there is a cost involved.

[00:08:27] Second, what are the interview steps that they need to go through? Who is the one selling the role? Because most hiring managers think that they need us more than we need them. And I tell them that this is a fair playing field. The candidate is also measuring you during the process. It's not only you. So you need to make sure that you prepare yourself.

[00:08:54] You have also selling messages together with employer brand. What are the key messages? But it can't be generic messages. It should be packed to the type of role that we're hiring for. That's the reason why the strategy in employer brand should be different from campus, should be different from experience, and should be different also for high level or C-suite types of individuals. I absolutely agree. Marketing segmentation is 101. Yeah.

[00:09:22] And incorporating that into the talent function is really important. Have you found that it helps with conversion or even retention? Yeah, absolutely. You've got to personalise your approach based on the talent market and the understanding, as you said at the beginning. So understanding who they are, where are they, and what they want. And that will vary massively from your campus hiring to your very experienced or senior C-suite hiring. So mapping that out from their get-go and aligning to your point, I think, with the hiring manager on what that looks like and what to expect is key.

[00:09:52] Because to your point, I think they think sometimes recruiters can just find this person very quickly, whereas there might be a lead time. And I love your point. You've said so many things, Wak, that I want to unpack. Jump in here. You said the – I want to be taking notes. It's just not your responsibility to tie this role. It's the hiring manager. It's their role. It's their team that they've got to recruit for.

[00:10:16] So I'm wondering how do you also empower them, coach them to do that, whether that's through carrying on that narrative from that first window into Deloitte through your recruiters. It's opened up even further once they meet the hiring managers. But you've got that part of the narrative, but also I think their role to play, to your point, when they're not hiring. The 95% of the time they're not hiring, when they should be pipelining, networking the market, coming to you with actually going, oh, I know these 10 great people.

[00:10:47] I've had coffees with them over the past two years. Can you follow up with them? But I imagine that's few and far between with some of your stakeholders maybe. So I'd love to hear how you help them with that narrative or how you perhaps help them plan their pipeline beyond just the role they have live today. So I think it's a change of the role of a recruiter. I mean, decades ago, a recruiter will fill a role. That's it.

[00:11:14] I'd like recruiters to be advisors to the business, which means whether your business is hiring or not, you are having a relationship with the hiring manager. It's also making sure that you understand what their business plans are, right? It's not just asking how many people do you need? When do you need them? It's a conversation saying, who are you pitching to? What are the type of companies that we're trying to invest?

[00:11:43] It's getting to know the business itself because from there, you might say, hey, by the way, I have a set of talent that's readily available. You could probably sell this kind of solution. So recruiters are really important and I love the consultant that's providing advisory, being a Deloitte consultant. I'm sure consultants like to be consulted too, which is great.

[00:12:12] I think it's a great philosophy. Where is the right time for someone in recruitment marketing or employee branding to shadow the recruiter to capture those requirements? So I think it depends also on the growth and the stability of the offering or the business that you're catering to.

[00:12:31] So if it's a newly developed function, definitely employer brand, HR, everyone else should be sitting in one table and say, this is our aspiration in a year or two years. This is how we would like to grow. This is the help that we need from each of the functions. So you're suggesting for employee brand or recruitment marketing to partner early? Yes, because it's important, right?

[00:12:58] Our objective is, before a business could grow, is to attract the right people. If we don't attract the right people or if we don't even have the right number of people, the business will not be successful. Are you experiencing this with the transformation of, say, new skill sets like AI, how businesses are planning? So in real terms, like you're turning up to meetings, they're saying, oh, we need people with skills with AI, as an example.

[00:13:28] How does that North Star guide the recruitment marketer or employee brand to help with that transformation? So it's bringing both parties in one table because definitely the role of the recruiter, I just need to close the job. I need to close the role. So true. Right. Right. But the employer brand is really more of, OK, this is how we're going to position ourselves in the market. This is the marketing plan.

[00:13:57] OK. So if you know that you need to hire more campus or more analysts or more junior roles, then definitely the approach or the plan is through universities. But if the goal is to hire the lead or to hire the functional head, it's a different strategy as well. And employer brand might be not a priority at that point.

[00:14:26] It could be engagements with agencies. So the way that I look at talent acquisition, it's actually not a process. I looked at it as I have different solutions around me and I cater the solution depending on what the problem is. Just like consulting. Yeah. What we do is we solve the problems of our organization. I'm with you.

[00:14:53] And when there is a need for employee brand, and this would be great for anyone who's listening, thinking I really need to get budget, maybe people, maybe software. I really need to move this along. We need wind in our sail. How do you communicate the importance of employee brand with a stakeholder that you're trying to fund the investment of employee brand? What are the things that you commit to the business to get that business support? Okay.

[00:15:23] So in my line of work, there are always three groups that I look into. Definitely the business, the candidates, and the recruiters. And what I do is I always want to hear their voice. So for example, in order for me to get support from management, either branding, either any other investment, whether technology or AI is,

[00:15:50] if I want to improve the productivity of my recruiters, I ask them, FGD, surveys, and I would say, this is the voice of my recruiters. This is what they need to make their job better. Yep. So it's the same also when it comes to candidates. This is what my candidates say. This is their experience. We need now to invest in branding. We need now to invest in technology.

[00:16:20] We need now to invest in making sure that there are surveys being sent out and FGDs being done on a regular basis. So for me, the lens of the business would always be, what is the worth of my investment? What's the worth of your investment? That's a good one. So if we were to have a tangible worth of the investment, what, because employer brand, and correct me if I'm wrong, Emma, it's not making money for the business. It's more saving money.

[00:16:50] So where are the opportunities for you to communicate to the business? You can create efficiencies or save money. What's the silver bullet? Actually, for me, at the end of each fiscal year, I would ask, have you met your target? Okay. I'm generally excited about this one. If you work in talent acquisition or employee brand, you would have come across James Ellis.

[00:17:14] Four books, over 15 years of experience, one of the most recognized employee brand authority voices in the world. On September 2nd, he's coming to Melbourne for the first time ever. He'll be talking about how to be choosable, how to be different in a market that's super competitive. If you're in TA or employer brand, or you're a CPO looking for differentiation, this is the most valuable afternoon that you'll have this year.

[00:17:44] Tickets are in sale now. Don't sleep on this. Yeah, I think you said it at the beginning. You've beautifully positioned your purpose and your team as a growth function. TA is there to grow the business, to get the people in, to deliver the business goals and therefore the targets. So yes, linking it, I think, ultimately back always to the business objectives and not necessarily a TA time to fill, time to offer objective.

[00:18:11] Ticking it into that is what makes it relatable, I think, and easier to talk to. But it sounds like that's how you find it as well. And I think what I'm also saying to the team is your responsibility is to bring back the ROI. And that ROI could be one year, two years. And the moment that individual leaves, your responsibility is to replace that at the same level or better. Gotcha. Right.

[00:18:39] So I think we all have our team aspirations. But at the end of the day, the hook is to make the business succeed. And there are times that in order for the business to succeed is you need to have come to Jesus moments to them and say, hey, guys, stop doing this. This is not a good candidate experience. This is not how we want our brand to be out there in the market.

[00:19:09] And I keep on saying now anyone could say anything. Right. You don't have control over that. So even if you're a powerful brand, there are times just one thing could lead to a number of disruptions, if I may say. But the role of TA and employer brand really is to align to the business.

[00:19:37] And at the same time, the business to listen to the expertise that we bring in. That's why I always want to make sure that we have a seat in the table. But of course, there are some organizations that are still not yet there at the level of that kind of partnership. So how do you build your partnership? You provide them data because these are people who think money all the time. So you talk to them in numbers. How many of you are hired?

[00:20:07] What is your conversion rate? How many days did you fill a position? You know, and if you could see that it's one of the things that we do is we measure the people that we hire after a year. Yeah, right. How do you do that? So right now, so it's a series of things. So right now, I think two years ago, we only measured them based on whether they've stayed with us within the year. Okay. Simple metric. That's a good one.

[00:20:35] After two years, I said, I want that to evolve. Because for me, it's just, okay, you've stayed. But did you give an impact? Yeah. Second year, I wanted to see their performance rating. Because from there, I could also get some value and sort of, okay, with this kind of profile against this skill set.

[00:20:57] Or it could be, hey, based on the managers who were involved in the process or the recruiters who were involved in the process, we were able to hire the right profile. So that's a survey that goes out to people? Or are you interviewing them face to face? So I do have an analytics team. Yeah. So all they do is to crunch numbers and data. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:21] So when we have the data set, we want to make sure that it's not a data set that is for the entire franchise. So it should be just for that specific business unit. Right. Because you really need to cater it depending on the objective of each of the business units. Because number one, the type of solution or the type of engagement that they have with clients is different from the others.

[00:21:48] It's always curating the right data set so that when you have a conversation with a business, it's something that they could relate to. Yeah. Yeah. Because you could say, okay, average time is X number. But they would say, they would ask me, is it for my business or for everyone? You guys are true consultants in a consultancy firm. The way you are, you're personalizing things.

[00:22:15] But I think to have a data analytics team to help you really build on that quality of higher metric, many organizations would be quite jealous of. So it's amazing you've done that. So I'd love to maybe just go back to that and break it down. So maybe for other people who don't have the luxury of that team. How do you build a dashboard? Yeah. And what other metrics could we look at? So quality of higher, being there for a year, absolutely getting quality talent in that stays. Those that then perform well.

[00:22:45] So you're looking at their IPM or their performance score. What other things do you think TA teams, big or small, could maybe look at to your point to carry on that data story around growth and impact the journey that they're bringing in quality hires without perhaps this amazing analytics team behind them? What other data points could we, could TA teams look at? So I started with all recruiters, 360 recruiters.

[00:23:13] And over the years, it evolved. I didn't have my analytics team on day one. No. I started with a bunch of recruiters. 360, they do everything. But, of course, as part of transformation, you go like, recruiters spend what? 40% of their time doing admin work. Right? So what you do is you add more people. You come up with central services who would do the scheduling, the creation of the contracts, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:23:43] And then you move. You move to technology. But the growth of my analytics team actually came from the first batch of recruiters that I had. Which means that when you hire a recruiter, just don't hire a person who will hire for you. Because definitely there are different competencies that they have. And you start with small projects. You say, hey, you know what? I need this kind of data. Who's good at Excel?

[00:24:13] Who could do Power BI? Who could do this? This could now be part of your additional contribution to the firm. Because you need to test it first. And once you test it, and you could show the business and say, hey, I need someone who needs to do this full time. Because there was a point wherein when hiring went up, we were not able to do our analytics. Because I need to make a decision.

[00:24:41] Stop all of the special projects. Because what is important is we hire the roles. So what are the metrics that matter in your business? I want to get behind your screen and have a look at your dashboard. No, you don't have to give away any trade secrets here. But what's the one metric or a few metrics that you look at that you think, okay, wow, this is really helpful.

[00:25:11] And if it's related to recruitment marketing and employee branding, one of those metrics that would be quite helpful. So I think there are two metrics that I feel makes a recruiter be better in her craft or his craft. One is the voice of the business. Right? Right? So recruiters don't really go after each hire and say, hey, how did I do?

[00:25:40] What did I do right? Right? I don't think it's built in the DNA of a recruiter for them. It's my job. It's my job. Right? But if you formalize that, that this is part of your scorecard, that you need to reach out to someone in the business and give feedback to you. And this is what I tell my recruiters. I know you could choose, but if I were you, do it randomly.

[00:26:06] Don't do it for your score at the end of the quarter or end of the year. Do it for your own self-improvement. So just randomly pick someone because that individual, if you made an impact, he or she will be able to give you a good review. Second is, for me, it's the retention of the person that have still stayed within a period of year.

[00:26:33] Although I have some recruiters who would say, oh, but it's beyond us. Right? It's beyond us because we didn't choose. But this is what I will say. Who gave that CV to the business? So that's why your role is very important.

[00:26:51] If you don't know what the function is requiring from you, if you don't know what the role of the individual and you don't know what is the expectation, then you won't be able to find quality CVs. Now, there are instances we're in, oh, but it's not in the market. And I said, that's where you do your research.

[00:27:16] In LinkedIn Talent Insights, you talk to candidates, you talk to the business, you talk to employer brand. And then you position yourself to the business and say, hey, I know this is the unicorn that you want, but unfortunately, there's no unicorn available. The next best thing that I could give you is this. So that's why it's a continuous partnership.

[00:27:39] So what I said to my recruiters is in order for you to give value to the business is it's not only hiring that individual, it's making sure that it goes back to revenue. Revenue. Yeah. So getting the functional, emotional and social outcomes right in terms of content can really impact attrition and retention. Is that what I'm hearing? Yes.

[00:28:06] And in my previous organization, I would say this, like, if you are hiring replacements all the time, I don't think you're adding value. Revolving door. Revolving door.

[00:28:20] I think what you've also discussed as well, immediately you've gone to very high level data points in a quality way in terms of what I think the business will listen to, the quality of hire and the experience the business is having with your growth function with TA. Whereas I think we know an employer brand in a recruitment marketing, there's millions of data points we can delve into and we can get really distracted in some conversation. What's the funnel? What's the conversion rate? Are you seeing lots of renegs or people putting out?

[00:28:50] And they are very useful data points to look at to understand where we need to focus our efforts. But what I think I'm hearing is that when you look at it at your level and when you're looking at it with your stakeholders, putting all of that aside, which informs the day to day. Ultimately, you're concerned about your recruiter's relationship with the business and experience they're having with you and the team to be seen as partners, true partners. And ultimately, the quality of the business and ultimately the quality of the business.

[00:29:18] And then are they staying and therefore growth of the business? Those two. That's why shadowing also is very important. So I allow my recruiters to shadow from the business. And it would also be good for employer brand to shadow from a recruiter perspective and vice versa. I was going to ask about this because I think we said it right at the beginning. You guys have got this unique opportunity.

[00:29:43] You're the first touch points for the candidates to really bring that employer brand experience and feeling to life. But you guys probably have the best feedback loop into the employer brand team. Correct. As in, do you know what? Kansas aren't even asking me about ABC that you're promoting. They're really passionate or what really hooks them in is this over here, which we're not even talking about. And feeding that back into your team or your strategy or your narrative could be so useful.

[00:30:12] So is that something you guys practice? So not at that extent. It's not formally in place. It's more of on a need basis. Normally when there's a problem. That's the trigger. Okay.

[00:30:29] But there are also other things that I think could be done in the future that in order for us talent acquisition and employer brand to really know the voice of our candidates is an FGD being run by an independent party. FGD? FGD. FGD. Could you tell me? Focus group discussion. Okay, great. I know that most organizations would have survey or net promoter score, right? But that is one way.

[00:30:58] And by an external party, not by perhaps, because typically I do that often as well on the employer brand team. We try and run focus groups. And I think I know where you're going with it. But what extra value do you get by having an external person to it? Yeah. And the candidates or the now employees feel comfortable that they're talking to someone who is not part of the team that got them there. Sounds like a priest has walked into the organization. Tell us your truth.

[00:31:28] And I think in order for you to change also your employment brand plan, you do it on a regular basis. Meaning at the end of each year. Because every year your business plan changes. You might be hiring a lot of AIs this year, but a year or two years from now, it's a different kind of skill set that you're hiring for. So continuous feedback from, that's why the three. Yeah, I love it.

[00:31:56] The candidate, the business, and the recruiters. It needs to be intertwined all the time. It certainly has been a fascinating discussion. Do you have any last questions? Well, one of my takeaways is what you just said actually is I think so many people can take that away in terms of listening and being agile with the focus groups. With new joiners or people that have been there for a while, hiring managers or candidates.

[00:32:25] But find someone external or objective to run it for you, to listen and stay agile. And if you can't have the resources or the budget to bring an external agency in, but maybe ask a completely different team that doesn't, to your point, have a hidden objective of getting the good results. Who can listen and report back and say, well, this is the viewpoint we heard. And I think that would be a really powerful feedback loop that you keep talking about back to the business.

[00:32:52] So that's certainly been one of my takeaways from our talk that I'd love to implement. Any last questions? I think, is there anything else you would be looking for your TA team to build on this year or next year around their employer brand or recruit marketing capabilities? Because I think it's always a growing space and needs that we're asking our recruiters to do in this changing world.

[00:33:22] Whether it's candidate needs because of AI. Is there something that's on your radar for this year or next year around their learning and their developments and capabilities in this space? I always like simplifying things. I used to be a person who thinks, what do we need to do five years from now, 10 years from now? But I think after my 20 plus plus years, I realized that I just need to make sure that I'm agile. Yeah.

[00:33:52] And I have a team who has the right mindset. I communicate to the business, to the candidates. And to also realize that there are times I have my wins and I have my losses. And I think at the end of the day, it's always the partnership of everyone that is part of the hiring process. I may be attracting people, but I won't be able to close the role if I don't have a good relationship with a business. Right?

[00:34:20] So everything is part of the journey. And my role probably is to make sure that we have one goal. But at the same time, each of us has a shared responsibility. Well, that's a great insight from a fantastic leader. I really appreciate you joining us and sharing your story. That's great. I want you to share your story. You just Christian, I love Christ. I hope to see you next time. Bye. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye.