87 [EB Series] Staying Agile in an Ever-Changing Employer Brand World | Natasha Wahap (L'Oreal)

[00:00:00] You're listening to VMJPod's Employer Brand Series. I'm David Machucker and joining me for this very special Singapore edition is the wonderful co-host Emma Lang. We're sitting down with incredible people shaping employer brand across the region to have honest conversations about what's working, what's not, and where to next for employer brand and recruitment marketing. Where's it all heading? There's a lot to learn from this part of the world in Singapore. Let's get into it.

[00:00:29] Welcome to the VMJPod where we go deep in employer brand. That is the series that we're going to be talking about in this episode. I'm David Machucker. I'm Emma Lang. And I'm Natasha. And we are so excited to be talking today about how to stay agile in an ever-changing employer brand world. Fun. Great topic, guys. Thanks for bringing me in today. I'm so excited. And before we jump in, do you mind if you just share a little bit about yourself?

[00:00:55] Sure. So my name's Natasha. I work at L'Oreal for the last three and a half years. Before that, I was in a small little company called Grab. And I've been in employer branding for the last 13 years before employer branding was even a thing. It all started with just, you know, knowing how to do videos. You know, that was what people thought employer branding was, but it's obviously so much more than that.

[00:01:18] So I think in the last few years, it's evolved so much and I'm super excited to tell you what I kind of know, what my expertise are. So yeah, excited to unpack it. Yeah. Nice. Very excited. So let's jump right in. Sure. On that point, actually, you've mentioned it. So years ago, I think quite often employer branding, we had quite clear plans for the year, recruitment cycles, what we wanted to deliver.

[00:01:41] But I feel like that's changing in the world we're in right now with the talent, with external market conditions, with companies pivoting all the time and talking about agility. How are you and your team navigating this right now whilst managing it to make sure you deliver? So how are you still reporting against perhaps plans or showcasing the work that you are doing to your stakeholders? Just before I jump into that, I have to give a little bit of context, right?

[00:02:08] So I lead the employer branding for the zone and our zone is a really unique zone. I think it's one of a kind and it's called Sapena. So it's South Asia, Pacific, Middle East and North Africa. So I have everything from New Zealand all the way to Morocco, right? So you name it. I have Australia, I have the whole of Southeast Asia, India, Middle East, North Africa. Okay. So, you know, when we talk a lot about agility, this is where it's at, to be honest, in this part of the world.

[00:02:38] And I think having, we are crafted in a way whereby we have this concept in L'Oreal called freedom within the frame. And I love that about our company. So the frame provides us with, you know, milestones, a certain agenda, certain objectives. And we are allowed to locally adapt to the nuances that we have.

[00:03:00] So I think that allows us also to have the flexibility to have, say, for example, a global EVP that is super clear. But also think a lot about our recruitment needs in our markets. Where are the gaps? And adjust accordingly and have these kind of like beautiful local adaptations. And to give you a bit of insight as well, you know, L’Oréal is a great marketing company. So we're learning from the best, to be honest.

[00:03:28] And, of course, employer branding is a huge, you know, an extension of that because we obviously learn from, you know, the best in the markets. And having that proximity that they're even closer to the trends, they're closer to what people want, that agility that they can pivot and move into different social media platforms, et cetera. It's really exciting. So at employer branding, we're like, can we do some of that? And it's allowing us to really experiment, you know, in these times.

[00:03:58] So I think it's even when we look at the beginning of the year, we say, OK, this is the plan. But no, it is going to change. The fact that we do have freedom within the frame, I think that allows us to really stay adaptive and moving as the times goes. I love the context. That's great. You will have to answer Emma's question. You can't deflect all the time. I'm curious to know, are you reporting into, what's your reporting line? Are you in the talent acquisition function or are you somewhere else? Yeah. So I'm in the talent acquisition function.

[00:04:28] But I work really, really closely with our corporate affairs and engagement team. And I really work closely with our content lead there as well as our media teams, et cetera. So but reporting line, here someone in the zone and then I have a metrics to Paris office. So two questions. What's the benefit of that strong alignment with those external teams outside of TA, marketing mostly?

[00:04:56] And how do you go about nurturing those relationships? Great question. I think, to be honest, my biggest partners in crime is, of course, my corporate affairs and engagement team and my media team. They actually have a great pulse in terms of what's going on. I mean, even within our corporate affairs and engagement team, we have a crisis and issues director. And it's really good to just stay close to what's going on.

[00:05:22] And that allows me then to have the empowerment to say, OK, I'm going to make a call here. This campaign is not coming out. You know, I think having these external perspectives really helps shape what employer branding is all about. Having these really strong partners within the organization allows you also to scale up in terms of a lot of your tools that you use.

[00:05:44] You know, say, for example, you know, HR, I think the assumption is always, oh, OK, we just put a video out and post it on LinkedIn. And those days are gone. You have to be really smart with how you utilize the tools you already have in the organization and say, can I have a piece of that? And then, you know, and we're constantly learning because obviously the space of, you know, programmatic marketing, et cetera, is ever evolving.

[00:06:10] So it's good to kind of keep close with them because you're kind of upskilling as you're going. It's just that you're the expert in people, but they're the expert in the tools and things like that. Well, it's just a good example of how to stay agile and never changing employer brand because by nurturing those relationships, you've got your finger on the pulse. Yeah. And with your lens of employer brand, you can make a call what works and what doesn't. So that's really clever. I think that's a great practical tip.

[00:06:36] Did you, because that's a dream position to have a great relationship with your comms teams and other stakeholders. And sometimes I know some internal employer brand teams can struggle with that. So did you find yourself having to, what did that journey look like to get super close with them? Or was it naturally already there when they were, did you have to spend a lot of time educating? How did you get there? It's smooth though, look. Well, I have my ways.

[00:07:01] No, to be honest, I think it's really around finding a common objective and finding that common goal that we both strive to accomplish together as a team and have, you know, shared KPIs, I think also really helps us kind of deepen the agenda a little bit more. I feel because of that relationship, it's a lot easier to have conversations.

[00:07:25] And a lot of these kind of win-win situations, I think that's where it makes it so much more exciting. And, you know, and there's room to experiment a lot, especially when you're outside of your ecosystem, I feel. That also helps to give different perspectives. And then you can kind of bring that back in into, you know, the HR team because they wouldn't know much about sort of extension. But yeah, so I think having common goals is super important. Nice.

[00:07:55] I have many other questions. Go! Don't be afraid. I am a total open book today, everybody. Yeah. Yeah. You talk through sometimes agility being easy because L'Oreal itself is quite a creative company. So you're surrounded by these marketeers who are on the trend, ahead of the trend, already planning what's next. So how, again, how you can stay connected to them and learn from them?

[00:08:21] So employer branding is almost on that journey with them because quite often I think the functions, consumer marketing, brand marketing can sometimes be more mature. They've got the tools, the resources, the budgets, you know, and because they're selling the products that creates the revenue. But obviously we're bringing in the people to do that. Yeah. So how are you kind of joining that journey with them and staying up to date with the latest trends or tools they're using? And maybe you've got an example of how you've unlocked that.

[00:08:50] I think I'm super fortunate to be in a company like L'Oreal, first of all, right? They don't delineate between you're in HR or you're in digital, et cetera. All of us are upscaling together. So what I'm super fortunate about is the fact that even on the AI journey, the tech journey, the data journey, I feel like, you know, everyone is first an employee. So we start with the bare basics of like, do we all know how to prompt? Do we all know how to use CreateTech?

[00:09:15] Do we all know how to use, you know, do we all know how to build the agent, et cetera, you know? And I think just having this common language, these ways of working, it makes it easier to approach the likes of marketing and say, hey, like, I'm not too sure how to do this. And the fact that it becomes this sort of, you know, reality of how we work together, these conversations are, again, easier to have because we're both, you know, we're both learning at the same time.

[00:09:45] And you're right to say that, yeah, there are some platforms, there are some parts of marketing that obviously a lot more mature, right? And I mean, we've been doing TikTok for years, right? We've been, we were the biggest pioneer in TikTok labs in Indonesia last, I don't know how many years ago. But, you know, I remember one day I was saying to myself, oh, can we do like a TikTok, like, but selling jobs? And then they went, no. And I was like, but why not? But it's because it's just never been done.

[00:10:15] But it's not, I'm not saying that, hey, why not do it? But having that, like, vulnerability to just be like, hey, I thought that was a good idea. I guess not. Okay, cool. And that kind of breaks a lot of the, this enigma of like, I'm better than you. I'm more mature than you. So it's sort of this curiosity, I think, that keeps our whole organization alive. And I think that's kind of how we've been working together.

[00:10:42] But a lot of the times now, even for example, utilizing a product called Sprinklr. So we use Sprinklr to push out a lot of our publishing, et cetera. You know, we bring them along the journey. We get them to come in. We get them to train us. It becomes like a, you know, a tit for tat situation. And, you know, when they have new tech, they're like, oh, have you tried this out? I tried social listening the other day with Talkwalker for just to understand what people are saying about us online.

[00:11:11] And I never knew that was even possible, you know. So I think just having these networks, having these conversations and saying, hey, look, I'm actually really interested in what you're doing. You've done amazing trend reports. I want to do a trend report for employee branding. Can you hook me up with your person? And I, okay, like this is a, we have a, we have an enterprise contract and slip in. Okay.

[00:11:38] Like, you know, so these are the things I think if you want to be good at your job, you have to really know how to find ways to make it work. Yeah. Or to find ways for you to learn. These unlocks, these partnerships that you're making everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Reporting into talent acquisition usually has a function where you're driving applications or you're impacting applications. 100%.

[00:12:03] And I can imagine having such a strong brand like L'Oreal, in my Australian way of saying L'Oreal. I know. Not like your beautiful way of saying L’Oréal. Yes. It's going to change in a bit, trust me. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine with that strong consumer brand that while recognized there's a perception of what it's like to work within the business. Yeah. And in a market like this where there typically are more people on the market in the current climate that we're in. Yeah.

[00:12:32] How do you stay active and busy and how do you turn your attention to potentially something else given that it is a little bit easier to get applications through these days? Yeah. Than when the market is, you know, more of a candidate driven market. So I think, you know, again, B2C is a lot more, it's easier to market. People just understand it. When you say L'Oreal, people just get it.

[00:13:02] Chic. You know, female brands. Those are the things that run around. Exactly. Right. But, you know, we're not just a beauty company anymore. We're beauty tech. Right. So I think going out there, having that really strong storytelling, I think really then unlocks a certain other demographic that could be interested in us. So, you know, now we're not just competing for like people in our competitors, but we're also competing with the tech companies, for example.

[00:13:26] Because we need to build the next, you know, tech product, personalization product that could help you find personalized beauty, for example. So I think that in that regard, yeah, applications, you know, I wouldn't say that it's easy. I think at the end of the day, it's quality again, quantity versus quality. So we're really, I think, again, L'Oreal is one of these places that I didn't, to be honest, I'm sorry.

[00:13:55] I did not know that you had this competition before I joined. But when I came in, the channels is quite interesting. It's not just, you know, the days of putting up a job and hoping the applications come in or the good ones will come in is gone. I think that that's not, I mean, of course, that's still a part of our employer branding metrics because, of course, awareness is very, very important in consideration, et cetera.

[00:14:20] But so then what are the other activities not having to rely on job boards to generate applications that you find yourself doing in a market like this? And it plays on being more agile and nimble and turning your attention. Yeah. So we've actually launched, well, I think it's 33, 35. Don't kill me if I don't know what the years of the number is. But we have this competition called Brandstorm, which is incredible because, and why do I say it's incredible?

[00:14:50] Number one, it's really around solving a business challenge. So it's a business case that's actually provided to the universities. And, you know, you can come in as a team of three and solve the business case, et cetera. And you go through the full channel. You put in your application. You register for it. You get mentorship. You put in the pitch. You pitch to us. You win your national finals, which is obviously in Singapore and Malaysia and all that.

[00:15:17] And then you go to the semifinals. So whoever wins the finals in the market goes to Paris and competes at a global level. And then the top 10 gets to pitch again to our, you know. So you have to be a university student to apply? You know, I was considering that. I was just like, I still look like I can go to uni. No, not even. I wish. No, but it's so, it's, it's, why, why do I mention Brandstorm?

[00:15:45] It's because I've never seen a competition that like a hackathon and things like that. I feel like when you go in a hackathon back in the tech days, it's sort of like, ah, you do and then you go. I have never seen an organization that fully nurtures, nurtures and develop young talents the way I've seen L'Oreal has done it. Is that a play to employ these people? It is. No, absolutely. And I think that's, that's, that's where, that's our key differential between a lot of other companies is the fact that we do nurture them.

[00:16:14] Um, we really create a lot of opportunities for them. Um, you know, I mean, even, even the winners in this Brandstorm competition, if you go global winner, you actually get to build your product. I mean, that's like, and you're, you know, you have, you spend time in Paris and you do an intrapreneurship, which is crazy. I've never seen a company like that before. So I can definitely hand to heart say that we're so innovative in the way that the different channels that we push out, you know, going on campus is one thing, but going on campus and being memorable is another.

[00:16:43] You know, the days of going to a career booth and you're just kind of like, you know, and then you're just sending out pamphlets gone. Right. But when you come to a L'Oreal, uh, campus activation, you are able to feel our products. You're able to interact. You're able to play bingo, you know, and, and that was not when I went to uni. Yeah. It had, it didn't look anything like that, but now the competition is super high in these, uh, in, in, in campus to go viral. Yeah.

[00:17:13] Uh, you know, and, and things like that. So I think we have to stay close to what's cool, what's trending, um, in order to, yeah, bring them onto the journey. Well, that just sounds like a fantastic candidate experience. Yeah. Engagement. Yeah. And I think that, that's what, again, is, is, is a big difference. I think now a lot of employer branding, candidate experience to be fair is an extension of employer branding. Right.

[00:17:40] And, uh, and I think candidate experience is where a lot of people have not really spent a lot of time on. And why do you think that is? I think we've been, I think we've been for a long time, just been looking at top of the funnel. We've always been looking at the bright lights. We've always been looking at, Ooh, this is trending. Oh, I got lots of engagement, but you know, I feel like candidate experience is really where the rubber hits the road. Right.

[00:18:07] How you treat people is how you treat, uh, your employees. Um, very simply, we even looked at the candidate journey from the time they get off the lift, you know? Um, and then what is the experience? What are they going to see when they walk through the office before they even get to the room? What is the experience that they're going to have even at the reception?

[00:18:29] I mean, these are even just before they talk to the hiring manager, you know, and then even that, uh, from a hiring manager perspective, we actually, uh, do a training for all of, all of our hiring managers. Um, before they meet anyone, we treat them, we, we teach them what is our employee value proposition? What's our EVP? Um, how do we recruit at L'Oreal? What are our processes, et cetera? So that when, when they meet the candidate, they know exactly how to present themselves.

[00:18:56] They don't even have, they even know where to walk the candidate so that they can also do a bit of storytelling, you know, on, on the walls. Like, ah, you know, this is our beauty tech section. Have you seen this? You know? So yes. And have, is this something that employee brand owns or the can, someone within the company that is accountable for, uh, the candidate experience? Or is this an initiative from a recruiter to the hiring manager who owns that?

[00:19:23] So our global team, they're amazing. They are, they think, you know, two, three years ahead for everything. So how we're structured is that we have an employer branding person. So they run all the campaigns, et cetera. We actually have a dedicated candidate experience person. And this person looks at how we look at job descriptions. This person looks at how we engage, uh, you know, candidates from the get go. How do we provide feedback on the platform, et cetera.

[00:19:49] So we really have embedded, um, the candidate experience as a part of talent acquisition, um, so that we have this consistency and having it sit in Paris as well allows us to have this sort of example or exemplary way of performing. And then we scale it across the markets. So everybody knows this is a loyal way to recruit. This is how we provide feedback. This is what we talk about.

[00:20:15] So, um, you've got the golden thread running through it, but to your point consistently. Yeah. So that experience, whether you're in Paris or Singapore is very similar and on point. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I'm generally excited about this one. If you work in talent acquisition or employee brand, you would have come across James Ellis, four books over 15 years of experience. One of the most recognized employee brand authority voices in the world.

[00:20:43] On September 2nd, he's coming to Melbourne for the first time ever. He'll be talking about how to be. How to be. How to be. How to be.

[00:21:03] How to be different in a market that's super competitive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How to be different.

[00:21:33] So if you're in a marketer. Right. Yeah. Really love that. Yeah. Coffee time. I have a tash. And you know what? She walks out to me afterwards to say thank you. Yeah. That can be so compelling and insightful. Right. It's memorable. Right. And I think that that's what we all want to, to hopefully achieve is to be memorable. Yes.

[00:22:02] Yeah. We were just talking about this offline. It is really important if you have a product and you're a large company. Providing even a service that you do treat your candidates like a customer. Yeah. No, absolutely. And this is very critical for us because that's actually how we, when the first, the first video in the training is that you're not only losing a candidate, but you're also losing a customer. So I think that helps the hiring manager sort of internalize. Okay.

[00:22:30] My behavior is actually going to impact, not just my reputation, the company's reputation, how we're going to do, because, you know, and, and with the likes of social media today, they have one bad experience. It can go everywhere. Has that ever been measured at L'Oreal? What's that? Giving that poor experience, what that cost could be. Yeah. So we have a, we have a candidate survey that is done to every candidate that has met us.

[00:22:56] The ones that have accepted or rejected offers or anything, as long as their role is closed. So yes, a CX survey is something that we look really, really closely to. So just going back to your, your question around how is it structured and how come employer branding is, is an extension of us as well. So I take care of both employer branding and CX and we can see a consistency in terms of, I mean, I look at the CX survey every single month and you can see the consistency on people

[00:23:24] that have been trained providing better candidate experience. Okay. So we have seen a console, like we can see the, the, the correlation of that, right? People that have been trained actually get provides a, people still have a good experience when they leave. And is there any correlation to attrition or even reneging? I don't think because that, that again is post, uh, like I'm like, bye, they're in. Okay. They're in.

[00:23:54] You've knocked the golf ball in the heart. I'm just like, bye guys. No, no, no. I wouldn't say that. Let me think about this question. So, um, so your question is really around, do you think. Your answer's good, by the way. Excellent answer. I just wanted to go that step further because I was curious. I was like, everything I'm saying, you're going, yeah, I'll do that. And I go, okay, well, I'll level up again. Yeah. If you can assign, yeah. If you, if, if there's like an actual way to, there's a dollar value for every poor experience,

[00:24:24] it's worth X, um, which, or it could be, um, you know, people are less likely to accept a job if the poor, if there's a poor experience and it's like, oh, there's like a difference of 20%. That is the truth of it all. It's that if they had a bad experience, they will not accept the job. Yeah. And what is frustrating is that by the time they decide not to accept the job, they're already three rounds in, we've invested, you know, 30 days. We have to restart the whole search again.

[00:24:53] Um, it's just not worth it to have a bad CX at all. Um, you, you know, you've taken the time to filter the right candidates. Your recruiter has taken the time to make sure that the candidate stays warm in this market. It is difficult. Yeah. So we, you know, in terms, even employer branding doesn't stop when the recruiter speaks, right? We have to build our talent communities. We're sending out messages. Yeah. We're giving them CV tips, et cetera.

[00:25:22] And we've done the hard yards. So it really just comes down to the hiring manager to give them a great experience, treat people how you want people to be treated. So, I mean, that to me is, is absolute basic. Um, and I think a CX candidate experience is, is where it's at. It's you, people need to start investing time in it. Staying agile doesn't mean you're taking shortcuts. It just means that you're putting in the work to create efficiencies.

[00:25:47] Um, so for anyone who is, there's a bit of white space, they're like, oh, we could definitely improve our candidate experience. How do you think, um, have you ever, is there a way to, uh, introduce some design thinking for the candidate experience? Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, first of all, put yourself in their shoes, right? Um, but also know what your advantages are in your organization.

[00:26:14] So when we were designing, what is the ultimate candidate experience for us? Um, again, you know, within freedom, within the frame. So we knew what we needed to get done. We knew that, uh, we, of course, there's a way, there's a process for us to, to recruit. But when we step back and we say, okay, like how would the candidate feel, um, coming into our office? And I think that's just, and how do we want them to feel? How do we want to be, how do we want to feel as candidates, right?

[00:26:41] Like not knowing anyone, I'm going to reception. I don't know it to scan my barcode. And you know, these not, this is not fun, you know, and you're already nervous. You're like five minutes late. You're messaging your recruiter. So I think you have to apply empathy in the whole process, right? You have to put yourself in the position of someone that's really nervous, that, you know, has obviously, that knows a lot about this job and is curious.

[00:27:09] And when you start putting yourself in that position, you start to think about, okay, how would they feel when they walk through these doors? How do we want them to feel when they walk through these doors? What do we want on our walls? What do we want on our big digital screens? Do we want, um, you know, one of the, I'm, I'm very lucky in my, in my career in L'Oreal that I'm able to travel and I always test on the ground. I'm always testing. Like when I walk in, nobody knows who I am.

[00:27:36] I'm walking through this, you know, I'm, I'm walking through the reception experience. Does the reception look? Does the receptionist look at me? What is on the digital walls? One of the big aha moments for me was when I was in L'Oreal, USA, in New York and on the walls, it was, and on the digital screen, it shows so much about employee engagement. And this is, this is critical in employer branding because obviously we have an internal and external narrative, right?

[00:28:06] Whatever happens internally can be pushed externally, et cetera. And what blew my mind was in the New York office on the digital screens, they had, you know, uh, lunch hours. Uh, we have healthy da da da. The next slide was, um, we have wellbeing days da da da. In the next slide was like, we got this for our employee survey.

[00:28:31] Uh, and as a candidate and you're seeing these things, you already got your validation. Super quickly. I didn't even need to sell it an employer branding. I didn't need to say, Hey guys, we're about wellbeing. Hey everyone. You know, like, yeah, the proof is in the pudding. You know, when you go to an office and you see on the walls that they care about their employees, they give good lunches that they, you know, they provide the platform for them to speak up.

[00:29:00] So one of our things is really around, um, you know, if you have a issue with the da da, you have a speak up platform. I mean, sitting there as a candidate, I was smiling. I mean, I wasn't a candidate at the time, but I thought, wow, like the, that already did it for the candidate to know exactly how they treat their employees, what they care about, et cetera, before even meeting the hiring manager. So I think they, these are the opportunities again, to work with your internal comms, to have this really strong storytelling. And that is just digital screens.

[00:29:30] I have a very strong relationship with my facilities guy, you know, because you do. Yeah. Every once I was like, yeah, yeah. My facilities guy, I'm walking through and I said, the rooms, you know, I need a picture of this. I needed it to be gender balanced. I needed to have a product. I need. And I need you to tell a story as well. Because I need one. I'm all about employee stories. Yeah, sure. What's your story? My story in. No, I didn't mean it.

[00:29:59] The facility manager. No, no. It sounds like what I'm feeling, and maybe you're getting a sense of this as well, is that the candidate experience means a lot to you. Yeah. The employee brand clearly does as well. But you're really passionate about the candidate experience. But it ties so closely with the employee brand. Yeah. No, absolutely. We're one glass door review away from being, you know, it wasn't great.

[00:30:29] The rate, the ratings go down. And this is, everything is available externally. So you have to manage that. Right. One of the things that we do in the organization as well is actually we look at, obviously, we have partners. We work with Glassdoor, et cetera. And a part of my quarterly is I provide them with their candid experience survey. So we look, we really deep dive in terms of where the gaps are.

[00:30:53] And then we look at Glassdoor and we look at, you know, what are even our internal employees saying? Because they're obviously posting it out on Glassdoor, et cetera. Then we work with the HRDs. Then we work with the HRBPs. We work with the business partners. And we figure out a way to rebuild that brand again and that trust, et cetera. So I think there's all these opportunities, actually, in employer branding and candidate experience. And is that how, that's a really great example of staying agile on a coarsely basis.

[00:31:19] You're really listening to the candidate voice around the reputation or their needs or what are they asking and perhaps where you're meeting it or not. How does that then inform perhaps your content that you're looking to create, whether that's employees telling the stories or the campaigns that you need to create? Yeah. Because it sounds like that's, again, a really agile, forward way of approaching it every quarter, which is brilliant. So if you could talk us through that a little bit. Yeah.

[00:31:45] I mean, one of the things, obviously, you know, that now we do the quarterly CX deep dive, et cetera, and we just get the pulse on the ground. Right. And I think, you know, we have a very clear employee value proposition, obviously, from Global and which we have proof points and resonate with it. But, you know, once in a while when we do find things that are, you know, obviously not going in the way we would like,

[00:32:09] these are some messages that we can kind of imbue into a caption or into LinkedIn, et cetera, even through our advocates, actually. So we have a very, very robust advocacy program within our organization. They all love to be a part of it. We love them as well. And, you know, I think for us, it's really important to have these authentic voices on platforms and allow them to sort of say, hey, you know, like, it's not true.

[00:32:37] We are actually, you know, and try to talk a lot about debunking myths. Yes. You know, in that regard. So we do it in a little bit. We don't do it in like, hey, by the way, you know, a little bit more finesse. Yeah. But still addressing the reality and the experience of what it's like working there. Yeah, for sure. So what makes that, you said you've got a really brilliant advocacy program. Yes. What makes it sing for L'Oreal? What makes it work really well for you?

[00:33:07] I think it's really around the employee lived experience, right? And we don't tell them what to write. We give them a theme. We say, you know, let us know what do you think? We have certain pushes throughout the year, et cetera, that we need a little bit of a more collective action. But I think just us giving them the trust allows them to be the authentic voice that they need to be.

[00:33:35] And I feel like that's what sings it for us. I feel like we allow them to be who they are. We're also obviously mindful in terms of the diversity that we bring in terms of perspectives, et cetera. So it's a great little, it's a great group. We work really, really well together, hand in hand, actually. Yeah. Something that's just swirling around in my mind. Of course. Just tell me. Yeah, I'll throw this out there. Just throw them out. It's fine.

[00:34:05] No worries. So L'Oreal has a consumer brand that's very strong. Yes. I'd say I sort of described it as beauty, but it could be more glamour. That's what I think, glamour. Yeah. So, but I'm assuming not everyone who works at L'Oreal is glamorous or beautiful every day. But they probably are. They're probably all beautiful. The inside. Yeah.

[00:34:34] There's a lot of like, there's always this assumption that we're like the devil wears Prada. Like, I feel like. Misconceptions, right? It really is. And it's not that at all. Yeah, yeah. So then on one hand, you've got your consumer brand, which is that beautiful looking imagery with products and people and that glamour look.

[00:34:56] But how do you strike the balance between the authentic people who work there and capturing their story and allowing the business to say, well, just because they studded or their hair's not perfect today doesn't mean I can't release that content. Yeah. Yeah. I think first we just take one step back, right? I think in L'Oreal we are, it's not perfection that we're after.

[00:35:21] I think a lot of people think when you're in the beauty company, it's all around like it has to be perfect. Your nails has to be done. Your lipstick has to be on. I think one thing that first we have to acknowledge a few. The first thing is that there are no visuals that are generated by AI. Like we literally made an AI framework and said there is absolutely no way we're going to ever generate humans through AI in any of the stuff that we sell.

[00:35:51] The fact that the company is standing by that imperfection, that uniqueness, the diversity of people. We really celebrate beauty on an individual basis. So everyone, you know, we call it beauty for all, right? And we're in an organization that is really, it's not just around, you know, self-empowerment. It's not just really around, you know, being socially accepted by what you put on your face, et cetera.

[00:36:21] But, you know, I feel like the fact that an organization is so anchored that we're all unique and we all bring our own piece of beauty into an organization. This is why I feel like if you feel L'Oreal is a place that you have to be a certain look and feel, you won't thrive there. Absolutely not. So your beauty, your way. I love that. I love that.

[00:36:47] But how does that impact the content that you're pushing out? And do you have the flexibility to show those imperfections to attract? In content that I push out? Okay. That's a good question. So our global team has, again, a framework in terms of what editorials, et cetera, should look like.

[00:37:09] And the fact that they have room for local adaptations to show, you know, what it could look like in Singapore, what it could look like in Australia, et cetera, gives us the flexibility to really show our own nuance. Now, does all our ads have to be polished, et cetera?

[00:37:29] I think the end message is really as long as the message is clear, as long as the message is consistent in terms of what we drive and how an employee can thrive in our organization, that is really good. That is like thumbs up. Well, it would help for any employee brand to have the flexibility to stretch their legs and be creative by showing authentic content without having to constantly get things approved. No.

[00:38:00] Yeah. Because the consumer brand is overshadowing the employee brand. Yeah. I mean, we, for example, any local adaptations that need to get through, we typically have guidelines already in place. Again, it allows us then from a local adaptation perspective to all also look similar in terms of scale and what is the loyal group brand and expectations.

[00:38:24] So the fact that we actually even have that is super cool already because I know other organizations are like, nope, the global assets has to go. And I'm like, but he doesn't look like me. How would I want to, you know? So I feel that it doesn't have to be perfect, but in our own way, it works. I think, so for example, TikTok testimonials. That's a good example. Easy. Easy to do. Easy to shoot. As long as the message is consistent, run.

[00:38:57] And that flexibility allows you to be agile, allows you to move fast, allows you to have this sort of intensity. Because again, it's a different platform. It's a different kind of way of communicating. And the fact that the global team can have their very editorial ad-like things. The fact that, you know, for local adaptation, it's like TikTok, street to the face, with a mic holding, with your hand. I think it's really cool.

[00:39:23] I think it allows you to have, to celebrate this imperfection, to celebrate realness, to celebrate authenticity. I think it's, we're already like happy that we have the opportunity to adapt locally. We could keep talking. I could keep asking you questions. But if there's a final question, Naomi. A bit of a question, but also a reflection. What I'm hearing is that it's the framework that allows you to be this agile and creative in a local setting as well.

[00:39:51] So you have that, that global framework. They've allowed you to localize it and have that flex. And then you've built that out locally, which allows you to, to deliver what you're delivering at Pace at L'Oreal, which is amazing. I guess one of my, my last questions would be, this sounds amazing. You have it all. So for the rest of us. That's not a question. How can we, how can we, if we want to scale it back for others that perhaps don't have those frameworks yet.

[00:40:21] What, what tips would you give to them of how can they approach proposing a local framework that still, to your point, is consistent and aligns to the global framework. It's very important. How could they go about doing that and get into closer to a L'Oreal state of play? I'd give them three advice. The first one is make friends today. Okay.

[00:40:51] Because you, when, I feel like in employer branding, most of the time you're alone. And it's a very lonely space. You're neither a marketing headcount or an HR headcount. You kind of sit in between. So, you know, when you go to, when you go to meetings in HR, you're like, like, what are you guys talking about? You know, so I think make relation, like build relationships first outside of your ecosystem.

[00:41:20] So try to find someone that, or try to find a tribe that makes sense to you. So my tribe in L'Oreal, for example, is my advocacy team. So, and this person doesn't even sit in HR. She sits in media. So media advocacy. So now I understand about influencers, et cetera. So employee engagement, big best friend. Content. And this, again, are outside of my HR team.

[00:41:47] So just having this good understanding of where the pulse is from a trend perspective with the advocacy team. Having a good understanding in terms of what global things would be a good content. Because you have to have that resonance. And then from employee engagement, what can we do to mobilize our teams to actually get them to talk about us, et cetera. Having just different perspectives allow you first to have a full understanding of, okay, this is how we have shared goals. That is even before you start to build the frame.

[00:42:17] First, decide what you actually want to achieve before you start to build the frame. Second of all, get really strong sponsors. And what do I mean by sponsors? I mean, look at your global teams. Have someone that, you know, can really mentor you through building a framework that makes sense for them, that makes sense for you, that makes sense for your team. And the third one, again, this is top, this is now, is bottom up. Always, always pick a pilot.

[00:42:46] Don't go in with your guidelines like, guys, okay, this is how we're going to do it. Always test, please. Test on two different types of markets. One that's a little bit more mature. One that's a little bit more digital native, et cetera. And just kind of sound it out. Guys, you're good. Because they're the ones that are eventually going to do it.

[00:43:08] So it's really important to find this sort of ground up movement so that when you do end up going out there and talking about the program or talking about the campaign, et cetera, at least you can bring someone and say, ah, actually, best practice, by the way, they've done it. And then they can be your advocates within their ecosystem as well.

[00:43:30] So it's really these three points, you know, find friends outside of your ecosystem for you to learn and develop, get global sponsor, and then test in the local markets. That's great advice and a great way to end the episode. We really appreciate your time and sharing your story. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, guys. Thank you.