91 [EB Series] The Honest Truth About Running an Employee Advocacy Program | Samantha Chong (GSK)

[00:00:00] You're listening to VideoMy Pod's Employee Brand Series. I'm David Machucker and joining me for this very special Singapore edition is the wonderful co-host, Emma Lang. We're sitting down with incredible people shaping employer brand across the region to have honest conversations about what's working, what's not, and where to next for employer brand and recruitment marketing. Where's it all heading? There's a lot to learn from this part of the world in Singapore. Let's get into it.

[00:00:28] Well, welcome to the VideoMy series where we go deep in employee brand and recruitment marketing. I'm David Machucker. I'm Emma Lang. I'm Sammy Chong. And this is probably one of my favourite topics, building ambassador programs, the do's and don'ts. And I'm really looking forward to unpacking this episode. But before we jump into it, Sammy, please tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:00:51] I have been in employer brand recruitment marketing for the last eight plus years. Prior to that, I was working at advertising agencies and then I moved in house. I was previously just at GSK. And at GSK building campaigns have always been in that kind of strategic, executional creative space.

[00:01:15] And then looking at how we localise content for this APAC region and how it all works and what works as well. Yeah. And it's really neat that we're going to be talking about ambassador programs and what the benefits are of getting it right. But people can start and it can fail as well. So, yeah, really looking forward to unpacking what works and what doesn't.

[00:01:40] Yeah. So let's start there with those programs you've developed around advocacy and ambassadors. And it's a great way to localise that in the market. Where have you started in the past just to build out that program? What was the starting point? So the starting point, if we're really going to look at where we started, is with the team itself. So from the ground up, we know we didn't start with budgets. It's usually we've got to do things for free. So how are we going to do that and who are we going to use?

[00:02:09] So immediately it's, you know, myself and the immediate team that I'm working with. So at that time it's the recruiters. So figuring out with them how to enable them to sell the company to talent, because that's what we're really doing. We want to attract talent and ambassadors, you know, are going to do that and help us do that. That's a really good point, though. Maybe you flow on. So actually talking about converting recruiters into ambassadors first before we even go to the rest of the employee base.

[00:02:38] I think that's a really good starting point in itself. So how did you kick that off? So we looked at our global assets on messaging. So getting those key points, what are we going to use? It was simple things like creating a one pager. And here are some of the points, the key points that you want to get across to people. If we're doing it, if we're creating content, this is, you know, use these points and this is how we write it.

[00:03:08] We obviously use tools. That's how I met Dave. And how, you know, when you're recording, what do we do? What do we want to say? How, you know, that authenticity that we need to get across. What is the story? So it's getting our employees to share their stories versus just talking about the company. I can imagine the efficiencies that you can gain when you formalise a program like an ambassador program.

[00:03:36] But why don't we just take a step back and you share knowing what success looks like, why, what are the benefits of having an ambassador program? So the benefits of having the program is you need people to be telling that story consistently and authentically throughout and in all of the different markets as well. So, you know, so it translates in that local market. So you're attracting the talent that is needed.

[00:04:07] And then, right, there is a structure, but it started very scrappy. And then that's how it then we're talking about process or structure. Yeah. Then that's where those kind of... Scrappy is good. What was the benefit? We'll just continue. What was the benefit of it being scrappy? Learning as you go, learning from each other and just testing out. So kind of creating it still on brand.

[00:04:35] So, you know, using the brand assets, what we have, you know, making sure that it's still, you know, have our values, our key messages. But how is that interpreted by them, themselves, and then posted out? And actually, that's where that authenticity comes from as well, right? So it's not perfect and it doesn't need to be perfect. So that's where it started. And, you know, I said it started with the recruiters.

[00:05:01] So once we had that and we had a few that did get comfortable, you know, it's not for everyone. And that's the other thing, right? You can't force it. It's not in their KPIs. KPIs. This is just something that is needed and it's, you know, that consistent message to go out. But, you know, once that's understood and seen by more people, then you're going to start to get more buy-in. So that's, I guess, how the ground up started and the scrappiness.

[00:05:29] And then that's how then you get the structure and it becomes neater. And then when you've got a few examples and you're getting engagement and people are starting to get interested to say, hey, how come that job role has a little video? Can my job, you know, the hiring manager says, can we have one of those? And that piques the interest. So then you start building essentially a case, but yeah, a case to share.

[00:05:55] And then that's where we then invited ourselves into meetings, actually, with stakeholders to share the importance of ambassadors, why we need them, why we need. You know, it can't just be two or three people creating this content. It needs to be always, we always need people with different voices, right? Like how many employees we have.

[00:06:22] We need various voices, various roles and talent that we're trying to attract to the teams. So it can't just be the recruitment team. So now we need your help. So I guess that's how then we had that. Started to create more structure. Here's a little template that you can use. Have a go. We are going to support you. We'll check it and then we'll post it.

[00:06:46] And then the other side to it is then, you know, that looking for the people that are naturally good at it or already doing it. And then that's, you know, leveraging on that, what they're already sharing and just tightening what they're putting out there to be more on brand. So then you can just say to our employees, hey, you know, this person has just posted this out. Go to their profile, you know, engage with it, share it, or just take a look at what they're sharing too to get inspiration.

[00:07:14] So it's also then building that capability and enabling people to create and share confidently. And that's from, you know, your grads through to your senior leaders. So much to unpack. Just snowball. It's just, yeah. So much to unpack. Right. Perfect.

[00:07:35] It's really, really good because there is, there's so many, so many nuances within that flow from when you start to it starting to pick up speed. I wouldn't mind jumping into the moment where you've moved beyond the recruiters and you're thinking, okay, how can we empower the hiring managers to be our talent scouts? Or who are the ambassadors we want to approach? But we don't know because they're not real, really our friends.

[00:08:01] But we love the fact that they've had an anniversary or they've had an experience that's memorable. So I was curious to know, like, how are you looking out for that talent? And then how are you approaching them? Okay. So take the first one, the hiring manager. Essentially, we're also looking at what the business needs. What are the business priorities?

[00:08:24] So we're actually proactively going to the stakeholders with a strategy to say, this is how we can support and this is what we think is needed. And, you know, kind of why it's important as well. Why it's important for you and why you should be an ambassador is because this is talent that you need. So, you know, and it's in, you're an expert in your area. Low hanging fruit, right? Exactly. Tell them. Hiring managers. Exactly.

[00:08:52] What has your career been like? Why do you enjoy working here? Why should someone come and join this company, join you? So that's exactly why you should share your story. And there's so many of them, like hiring managers, 10 to 12% of companies over 1,000 employees have them participating in interviewing. Exactly. So why wouldn't they show up? Exactly.

[00:09:18] And you've got the ones that, you know, have that longevity, have built their careers within the company. Share that. What does that look like? You know, what those opportunities are within GSK to, like, that's the most recent company I've worked for. So, yeah, how do I, you know, how do they build their career? And then the other side of it is the people that have just joined. It's like, okay, so wait, why did you join us? What attracted you?

[00:09:42] So you want to hear, you know, from the person that's on day one and the person that's on their 20 year as well. So that's kind of the hiring manager side of it. When you ask me about how do we look out for the talent? Honestly, again, that's just a manual and that can also be scrappy. It's a search. Sometimes I'm just looking at a specific hashtag or we're looking, I'm working with a specific market. So, okay, Malaysia. All right.

[00:10:12] Let's see. Have they just tagged it, you know, put hashtag GSK Malaysia? I don't know. Let's just have a look. Have they put something, you know, used one of the more global hashtags for us ahead together? Just having a quick scan. Who has posted? So it can be as manual. That's a great hack. Like who's active on social? Yeah.

[00:10:37] Because if they're active on social, particularly if they're posting on social, then the probability is that they're more likely to be open to participate in the program. That is likely that you're going to be posting on social. Yeah, exactly. And it's just also talking about it when you're just speaking to colleagues, you know, we want to create content. Who do you know in your different areas? Who are you working with? Have you seen anything?

[00:11:01] And it's just those conversations that actually, you know, so-and-so from that department has just shared a post. Maybe let's have a look. Do they share more than one? Was this a one-off or is it something that they do? Or someone, yeah, it's just popped up on their social media and said actually someone just posted something really interesting. Let's tap into them and see if they, you know, want to continue helping us or be an official ambassador.

[00:11:29] So that's, yeah, like I say, it's quite manual organic the way that we find those ambassadors. And then the other part of it is, you know, nominating people. So it's an opportunity. It's a how, you know, it is an opportunity because at the end of the day you are also building your personal brand, your confidence, your voice externally. So that, you know, what's in it for them? This is what's in it for them. What else is in it for them?

[00:11:56] What are some of the things you've had to do to convince them to participate? Actually, other, where we found, randomly found other ones is just in live events where it's a celebratory event. So in that, it's, you know, please share this post, you know, we're celebrating the fact that we've won an award. Let's take a picture. Use the hashtag.

[00:12:26] Here's something that we might be giving away. Swag. Some swag, exactly. So you're bribing them? Slightly. But then that's that one off. But you're talking about then how do we continue to keep them engaged? But again, it's kind of naturally trying to find the ones that are more comfortable or are curious to dive into it a little bit more. Because I think it's that initial starting, right? Getting going. It's like, how do I do that? Who do I go to?

[00:12:56] What do I do? But once you've kind of handed them a few tools or, like I say, that template, then, you know, it's off they go. I only flippantly said bribing because I think it's more of recognition. And they should be proud. It's like, oh, you've got a sticker you participate or a T-shirt or a mug or something to recognize participation. And sometimes that's what it takes.

[00:13:23] But internal recognition is really powerful. And so is external recognition. And that's for free. That doesn't cost any dollars. But it could be, what are a couple of other things, Emma, that help encourage people to participate? I think there's been some other great examples of actually just feeding it back to the person involved in the program, the impact they've made. They've had certificates, but they've also, somebody mentioned how they include the manager in that as well. So the manager's reinforcing that behavior.

[00:13:52] So I think it's those pieces that can be really meaningful in addition to the swag or whatnot, or whether it's leaderboards can help drive that participation. It'd be really helpful. Competitions. Yeah. Everyone's a little bit competitive, aren't they? My posts will go viral. But I love your point, actually. It's a really good takeaway of just reminding people those moments, those EVP moments that happen, whether you've won an award, there's a town hall, you've got a lot of employees in front of you.

[00:14:21] It just takes the leader to almost sponsor the message, say, oh, by the way, let's celebrate this. Use the hashtag, one ask. When you post, it's already inviting them out to capture the moment, celebrate it, and include a hashtag or a call to action, whatever it might be. And that's when you're almost your hunting ground. You can start to see who naturally does it. Exactly.

[00:14:45] And then when we're talking about going back to more structured things, actually, we had a program where it's more on the brand side, but let's take, you know, the parallels of what we could use from brand and then into employer brand and group marketing. Was sign on for six months. You need to just come along to a drop in training session. Here's the deck. There's further drop in sessions as you're going through this six month program.

[00:15:14] And then at the end, you can off board and say, hey, you know, I've done my six months or you can continue if that's something that you've enjoyed. So, you know, there is now more structure around the participation and becoming ambassadors and commercial ambassadors. Right. Yeah. And that's awesome because that's recognition as well.

[00:15:37] It's ongoing recognition because they're part of a community and a special group that's either been asked, which is great. Yeah. Also with that, what I love is there's a timeline to it because quite often these programs, they kind of, they go on for a while and you forget why you're part of it. And that's the really hard point you mentioned to keep, maintain them and keep people engaged.

[00:15:59] But if you, if you have cohorts or so, or people then can opt to stay in and they've, they've learned the behavior and the habits and then they continue. Fantastic. Others will step out, but maybe they nominate someone else or then you do that process again for the next six months. Exactly. And then, you know, just don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but if we're talking, we're thinking about that, you know, the kind of commercial type of brand ambassadors or content creators, the expectation is clear as well.

[00:16:29] So making sure that expectation is clear. So say if we are creating a program and it is six months, okay, within that, what do you need to do? Is it a post a month, you know, or is it two post a week? What is it? And then having, I guess, those milestones or just that, you know, program set out. So then you are also from a company perspective, getting what you need from those ambassadors.

[00:16:54] It's not just a, a, some, a title where you're like, yeah, I am, but I don't know what I'm doing or like how often in that six months. Yeah. You mentioned making sure that people have a hashtag. And I just want to circle back to that because one of the benefits of having this hashtag is that you can actually see what the engagement has been like.

[00:17:18] And it's how, how easy or difficult is it to show an ROI on having an ambassador program? And what are the other ways you can track engagement? This is a very difficult question. Thank you, Dave. Ask the hard questions on this podcast series. Yeah, we were actually, yeah, Emma and I have, this has come up in just our general kind of catch ups and talks, right? How do we track this?

[00:17:46] And then from this, take it to the business. If you want to grow it and, you know, have a setup like this where you're, you know, creating some serious content. How do we, how do we pitch it to them? You're right. It's, it's very difficult. Like I just said, it's manual because we are looking at posts of engagement. We might not have a system in place that's going to be able to scrape all that data.

[00:18:15] Maybe we should build that. Or if someone hasn't built that, can we have someone build that? But, you know, how do we gather that engagement data? It's, I guess, asking, honestly, this is what I have done.

[00:18:31] I have asked people to look at their posts and to send me screenshots of the posts just so I can calculate the reshares, the engagements, look at the comments, then collate that information to share in a report. Like I said, to pitch if we do want to, how do we move this forward? How does that translate?

[00:18:56] If we look at it as a bigger picture or we have a goal. So I can say for Singapore, we were looking at one of the awards, Australia Times Award, and it's, you know, from one year to the next. So you don't know until the following year what your strategy, like how has your strategy impacted the results?

[00:19:24] Thankfully, we've had positive results. But that is a tell, but that's a long-term kind of tell, you know, metric to look at because it's that consistent message, making sure that the, yeah, the content or things are being shared. And then we get a result at the end. I'm generally excited about this one. If you work in talent acquisition or employee brand, you would have come across James Ellis. Four books over 15 years of experience.

[00:19:53] One of the most recognized employee brand authority voices in the world. On September 2nd, he's coming to Melbourne for the first time ever. He'll be talking about how to be choosable, how to be different in a market that's super competitive. If you're in TA or employer brand, or you're a CPO looking for differentiation, this is the most valuable afternoon that you'll have this year. Tickets are in sale now. Don't sleep on this.

[00:20:23] What are some of the measurements you use? Yeah, it's such a tricky one. And I think you actually, you mentioned some really important ones early on just around when hiring managers recognize, oh, there's a, there's a advert, a video next to my job description. How have we done that? Or getting the feedback back from candidates going, oh, I really enjoy that video from Sammy. It made me apply for the role. Or sometimes getting the recruiters to feed back those comments. To me, that's so much more valuable than the data points.

[00:20:50] If we know that, A, it's resonating and it's driving behavior. But it can be, yeah, quite manual, I think. Other ways, similarly, I've done very intentional campaigns and we've asked people to practically share to try and capture their data and equate that to the media value of what it has been. But you can't do that for every post or throughout the whole year. So I think it's always going back to the research is there, the theory is there, it's sound.

[00:21:20] We know this resonates and it has the impact. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's probably three ways that you could look at it in three different buckets, potentially, on the systems that you're using. So you're creating efficiencies through the program. So it's, and if you're able to measure savings on content because you're doing it yourself instead of outsourcing to a digital agency, that could be one.

[00:21:51] It's typical marketing metrics as well, like views and impressions. And although it's manual, it's like click-through rates. That's kind of neat, but it's manual. But I think where the rubber really hits the road and it's around applications, it's getting the recruiters to share the information around referrals, increasing time to hire because there's more trust there. All the employee brand metrics that sort of kick in. Yeah.

[00:22:21] Attrition down the track. So because you're communicating the, you know, functional, emotional, social outcomes of what it's like to work within the company. Hopefully that's landing and people's perceptions are aligned. So there's nothing. Yeah. That's not aligned. So it's not a revolving tool. It contributes for it. Yeah. And then if you've got the time, but it's a hard one, retention, which is so far down the track. That's a tough one.

[00:22:45] And maybe a little bit out of the control of running an ambassador program or an advocacy program. But it's still there. It's still there because you're creating advocates. You're creating goodwill. You're communicating culture internally. And that has an impact on the bottom line. That is true. And if you're looking, I guess, if you're going just off the back of that, your metrics and how messages are landing.

[00:23:11] I mean, we do use the ATS systems, like the candidates coming through. Are we getting applicants? Have they selected, you know, they've seen the job from a social media platform? What's the contribution from social media? So we do, you're right, look at that. Is that a survey at the end? No, this is a report. It's a report. So we can report, yeah, how many applications you've got, how many candidates per.

[00:23:39] If you're just looking, if this is more tactical. Because you can see the journey, right? Yeah, source of hire. Exactly. Looking at the journey. So again, that could relate to is the message landing because, hold on, is that, why is that number so low? Maybe this isn't. So let's go back and revisit or ask the ambassadors, hey, to create something more or different. Yeah. To change that.

[00:24:08] See, we've got, you know, your Glassdoor or there's other platforms that employ a brand listening tools that also can show where there are challenges. Or opportunities, actually, we'd say where we should talk about or maybe amplify a specific area a little bit more because we've got a little bit of bad, you know, rep on an area. But also positives as well. For sure, yeah.

[00:24:35] Like if you, you know, for instance, say one of the marketing campaigns is landing because the parental leave scheme is awesome. Well, that could be really helpful to incorporate that content in, hey, you've just been invited for the first interview. Did you know that we have this awesome parental leave scheme? And then that could help with less reneging in terms of a certain cohort of males and females in their 30s. Yeah.

[00:25:05] Potentially. Yeah. I like how you brought that one up, actually, because that's how we found some of our ambassadors, because there had been changes in things like paternity. And someone had shared a very open, honest, authentic post, you know, about their themselves. And hey, is this something that you want to do regularly? Or would you think about helping us do or can we amplify your post alone? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:35] So, like I said, it's just those moments where, hey, we found someone, we found something in this. We found a really great example to use. And then sometimes what encourages them to do it even more is if the official handle, say GSK LinkedIn, then comments on that person's own organic post can massively amplify, but amplify their confidence to do more. To know that. Absolutely. It's OK and they like it.

[00:26:03] And then that just helps them activate it and encourages others if they see that it has been sponsored on the official level. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot is people are a bit worried about saying the wrong thing. And that is fair, especially when, you know, working in highly regulated environments, matrix environments as well. Right. So fair enough, because we are on the flip side told you can't say X, Y, Z. You need approval for a lot of things.

[00:26:30] But once you have the key things that you can't say you're not supposed to, then, OK, actually, it's not that. Complicated. What are a few other questions? I don't know, like downplay it, but, you know, it can be. Yeah. It's cool. It's one of the things that they think about. Or it's and it's one of the things that you want them. You probably want to get ahead of the curve as well just to let them know what they can and can't say.

[00:26:58] It's part of empowering them because the last thing you want them to do is, you know, spend the time, create the content. It's like, oh, we can't use it. Or do you mind if you do it again? Yeah. So what other things exist in the framework or curious questions that they might have that you try to preemptively answer? I always get one, which is how often am I expected to post every day or what's the best time of day?

[00:27:25] And then suddenly everyone overcomplicates it and overengineers it. So it goes back to your point, I think, around outputs and just being clear on those measures of success in that program. And that's typically always one of the top three. Yeah. How many? Yeah. Their expectations. But I think you just earlier, Sammy, you mentioned something that's really interesting. How can we take learnings from the brands, the consumers, the outside of HR?

[00:27:53] Well, organizations are, you know, recruiting influencers to help with their marketing efforts on social, right? And to your point, they're giving the swag, the products, whatever it is. But they will have very clear, I imagine, expectations. They do. Their consumer branding is different. So we expect you to post this frequency, this amount in this way. Maybe we should learn from that. Maybe we should be much clearer of what you're going to be. Expectation, yeah.

[00:28:22] Yeah, for the six months program, you get given this training, this recognition that this is what we'd expect of you. Yeah. And then it helps with the measurements because then we can go back to leadership to say, well, this cohort has been told to post this amount and it will result in. And you can get quite meta with it as well because you could say, well, this is our statement. These are our pillars and these are the behaviors.

[00:28:47] So I've got 30 people who have signed up to be this ambassador program and I want to see what content is landing. And these five, six people, they're going to be talking about this pillar and they're going to hopefully share these behaviors in the content that they're creating. And you divide it up equally. And if you are able to divide it up equally, wouldn't it be nice? You can see what's actually landing on social as well.

[00:29:16] So it could be hybrid workforces landing. So then when you're looking back and reflecting on what can we need to refresh our EVP, you've actually got some data to leverage, not just based on internally how it's landing, but externally as well. And you either double down on that pillar and those behaviors or you look to tweak it. Yeah, exactly that.

[00:29:40] And then I was just thinking about when you do need to get a bit more tactical to specific niche talent, obviously then looking across the pool or here are the points. Hey, these are exactly what you said. We need you to include these points within what you're saying or you're creating to make sure that we are touching that audience. We've got a framework here. We don't want you to talk about everything. That would be nice.

[00:30:03] But, you know, this behavior is really important to you or these are our four pillars, which is the one that really resonates with you and why. Where has this behavior shown up? Let's talk about collaboration. Where has that shown up in the workforce for you in the last six months? Yeah. And they have this amazing emotional story about a colleague helping them.

[00:30:28] And not only can you use that on social, you can also incorporate that in the Kennedy experience as well. And I think it's really powerful. And I think that's important what you said as well, what resonates, because you can't force it. And if it doesn't resonate, then it's not going to come across as authentic as well. And that is key because people know, right? They know you're faking it and you're not being genuine.

[00:30:54] And it's those genuine stories that I think will resonate with the audience that you're targeting as well. So if it's not resonating with the person that's creating it, then it's not going to land. Yeah. And so then there's the balance between authentic employee stories that could be a little bit rough, ready and scrappy.

[00:31:18] And the balance of, I work for a famous company that's a billion dollar brand and we need to uphold those brand standards. Where have you found the balance, Sammy? Because I'm assuming the first sort of scrappy, authentic stories, the ums, the ahs, the engineer that's probably a little bit awkward is what you really want to capture. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:43] No, I think that, I mean, through the years when we've kind of revamped EVP, the brand, once that's been shared in the structure and essentially we do have guidelines and we need to stay quite within them. Um, it's that expectation of, okay, this, this is the guideline.

[00:32:05] So here's the box, but you can't come this far out of the box and there's tolerance, but that's also about the support that we provide as well to them, right? That kind of confidence, that capability. Yeah. We do want it to be a bit scrappy, but in a neat way too. And it, the balance you're right is key.

[00:32:29] Um, but the, the way we've done it is, is through governance, to be honest, it's a corporate structure, you know, through the approvals and also testing. Cause like I said, here's the box. Maybe let's like go color a little bit outside the box and see if that gets through. We just try it. Yeah. You know, sometimes. What do you think the benefits are of, of gating, um, or mitigating, you know, potential risk? Yeah.

[00:32:58] I think it's there cause I know with Cringing Codals, it's quite governed, but in some ways that's fantastic cause you're given freedom in the framework, but you're, you're given a clear framework. So you do know you're going to get to the point where the content is going to come out and you can use it. So in some ways it, I think it also does give people confidence that they know the framework they've got to respect and work within. Um, if anything, it can help people move forward.

[00:33:24] And I think that's, that's the balance of making them feel like they can work in it and not feel threatened or, yeah. Yeah. By it. But same, I've seen it. You can share that and then people go off and do their own things, but you get, especially the early careers audience, the interns, the grads can come back with some really creative things within that framework. And then I think it's, it's about then celebrating that and showcasing it in the examples of the training to go, well, but this is great. And this is great.

[00:33:53] They're both quite different, still approved, still in the framework, but look at how you can stretch it. Now you can make it work. So people do come back and surprise you in a, in a great way. Yeah. I agree. We have that for market to market as well. Right. Yes. Because you have China who are way ahead of the curve in that creativity. Is that right? Yeah.

[00:34:16] They, you know, we've seen some great gamification, like, you know, ideas, um, like even like the way that they do panel discussions or quizzes, you know, when they creating a video, you've, you've, you've got, you know, got so much animation within, you know, that edit.

[00:34:35] It's so different and maybe not, you know, within the strict brand, but actually engagement and the, you know, the way that they are interacting with the audience kind of outweighs it. So it kind of gets approved. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:53] So sometimes taking that risk, like you say, you do get surprised and you're surprised that it's approved, but because the result or, you know, the impact is more there. There's a little bit of, you know, stretch and tolerance there, I think. I think that's a really good point. Yeah. Sometimes people go a bit rogue, but, and yeah, and as a, somebody who works in the brand and you want to protect you, but exactly it, they've kind of got away that it works really well.

[00:35:21] And then it just opens doors a little bit. Pushing you down. Yeah. You see some gems, especially from other markets, China, Philippines. Yeah. They get really creative. Nice. Well, we've been talking for quite some time and it's been a fascinating episode so far. Any final questions? Do I? Okay.

[00:35:42] Let's have a think around your, your tips because you've, you've created it, as you said, from a scrappy place, which is where I think most people start from with an ambassador program to move it to learning as you go in more of a structured approach. So any top tips for anyone else that's just starting out based on your experience or your learnings or the fails? What would you like to wrap up? Okay. So what we've talked about then, okay.

[00:36:10] So the takeaways in a, in a nutshell, I'm like, okay. Yeah. The first one, I guess that comes to mind is you can't force it. You can't force people to do it. Obviously you can suggest nominate, but at the end of the day, you know, they need to be able to feel it or want to do it too. Otherwise it's just going to fall and fail.

[00:36:35] Um, the second one is don't, we can't over script it as well because you want that genuine, you know, that authentic, like we talked authenticity, the stories to be carried by them, not just to be told robotically. Um, and the third is that what's in it for them, you know, what, you know, the recognition, um, you got to pitch it. Exactly.

[00:37:00] Cause you know, so you, people like to be rewarded or, you know, recognized or feel good about doing it. To start a movement, exactly. To start a movement, you do have to pitch it. And then I'm sure it gets to a place where that people feel like they've left out a bit of FOMO. It's like, why wasn't I asked? I'm pretty good employer. I've good tenure. I love this company. I've got something to say. Let me share it. Yeah, exactly that. I think they're really good takeaways. All three of them.

[00:37:30] I really appreciate you coming on and telling your story. Thanks, Sammy. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Yeah. It's been a great conversation. Thanks.