88 [EB Series] Why a Global EVP Will Fail Without Local Voices | Jenny Roberts (ex-BP)

[00:00:00] You're listening to VMJPod's Employer Brand Series. I'm David Machucker and joining me for this very special Singapore edition is the wonderful co-host Emma Lang. We're sitting down with incredible people shaping employer brand across the region to have honest conversations about what's working, what's not, and where to next for employer brand and recruitment marketing. Where's it all heading? There's a lot to learn from this part of the world in Singapore. Let's get into it.

[00:00:30] Well, welcome to the VMJPod where we go deep in employer brand. That's the series that we're uncovering. I'm David Machucker. I'm Emma Lang. And I'm Jenny Roberts. And I am so excited to be unpacking this episode. This will be a good one. Yep. You've received a global EVP and how do you localize that? So we're going to get two inches wide and a mile deep on this topic and we're really looking forward to unpacking it.

[00:00:55] Yeah, it'll be a really interesting one. I think quite often here in Asia we come across this so often of being handed a beautiful EVP or a global one and hopefully being part of that but then just expected it to roll it out just as it is. So before we jump in, do you mind if you just share a little bit about yourself and your background? Sure. So I've been in employer brand now for coming up to 20 years, which I don't really like to think about. Obviously in my head I'm much younger.

[00:01:26] At least you didn't put a plus at the end of that. Yeah. Actually I should have said 15 plus years and that would have been better. I started agency side as a media planner. So right back in the day where everyone was doing print advertising, you might get an online job listing with that print advert.

[00:01:46] And then worked all the way through working on graduate campaigns, experienced hire before moving in house and seeing the other side of the coin, so to speak. So yeah, I had lots of industries, lots of people, lots of different stakeholders, lots of talking about stakeholders, lots of people that either completely understand employer brand and EVPs or have no idea and you have to educate from scratch.

[00:02:16] So a wide range. And famous brands? Famous brands, yes. I've worked with Accenture, Bank of America Merrill Lynch, Talis, Linklaters, VP. So yeah. Wow. Incredible. I could go on. I'm actually forgetting a lot and I feel bad just in case there's any previous clients watching this.

[00:02:43] Well, there's just so many incredible brands who have HQ here in Singapore. Yeah. So the problem that we're going to unpack is likely to be very relatable to a number of people who've just been gift wrapped this global EVP and told to roll that out. Yeah. But it doesn't always align locally. So unpacking how you've gone about it and how you've given advice and maybe create a change will be a fascinating conversation.

[00:03:12] Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So with that in mind, is there a place you'd like to start around that localization journey? So where when you typically get that that gift wrapped presents, where do you start? What's your first starting point there to apply to the region?

[00:03:31] So I think it's really important to talk about how important that is to localize, because a lot of companies might develop their EVP, a global EVP and not really thought about the next steps and when it comes to rolling it out.

[00:03:49] So for example, you could give a local market an EVP and you could say, OK, you go ahead and you use this as it is, but you don't you then lose the relevance to those markets. Well, just before we jump into that, like, what are some of the signals that you have this intuitive feeling that it's not aligned once you've read it?

[00:04:19] So, I mean, to take a step back, because I think when you're developing an EVP, it's one of the most important things is to bring on board your local stakeholders and your local markets in the first place. So you shouldn't really get to a point where you're just given an EVP and an employer brand and told to use it. You should. But it does happen. It does happen. And you've experienced this. And I've experienced it. And I think it comes with a lot of challenges when that happens.

[00:04:45] So, for example, if you want to roll out your employer brand in China and you've got this really cool, fun message that's been developed in the US and you give it to the China market and you say, OK, here you go. So, you know, a straight translation of that message will lose all its meaning. So what could it sound like? Like a slogan? It could have a completely different meaning. OK.

[00:05:14] It could, you know, I think we try to be very clever in some of the Western markets with our tone of voice and our headlines. And that doesn't work in the Asia markets because if especially if you're going to translate it into a different language, it could lose the meaning completely. When you're when that happens and you're given something. You need to have you need to be thinking about trans creation.

[00:05:43] So you don't want to lose the sentiment of what you're trying to get across from a global point of view and in the Western markets. But you want to. Make it relevant to that local market without losing that sentiment, if that makes sense. Are you telling the people that you're doing this or are you just going ahead and doing it? What's your advice? Always bring them on board. Everyone comes on the journey with you.

[00:06:13] But, you know, especially that's actually a very good point because it's very important in the local markets to get those stakeholders on board and make them feel like they're part of that journey. And they're having an input because it is important that they they want to get the hires just as much as people in the UK want to get the hires. So you really do have to, you know. Get their input and it's important for you to be able to then translate that message appropriately. I was going to say you become the translator.

[00:06:42] Effectively on both sides. You've got to translate what global is trying to achieve, listen to the local market and then find that that halfway house that makes both sides happy. Because, yeah, if we're not listening and the local side isn't brought in, then it just won't be applied. And I've seen that quite often to the direct translation is just completely lost. Yes.

[00:07:04] And if that's the first experience, I think, with localising that EVP, the local stakeholders can immediately just start to back off a little bit. Yeah. I've got a question because when I think of an EVP, I think of a statement and I think of pillars that sit underneath that. And there's a pillar and there's behaviours to that pillar. Yeah. Are you saying that there can be at times completely unrelated or are there some gems in there that you can work with? No.

[00:07:33] So what I would say is your core EVP and your pillars globally would remain the same. Hopefully you've done the right research. You've researched across your key markets, your key business areas. And those pillars will remain the same, but how they're expressed in the local market would be different.

[00:07:53] So you might use if you're talking about growth, for example, if growth is one of those pillars, what pinpoints growth in different markets would be very different. So in one market, it might be growth might mean fast career development. But in another market, it might be more about learning opportunities or stability or leadership. So then you bring it to life in those local markets.

[00:08:22] So you might think you use local employees, you tell local stories, you highlight benefits that are relevant and resonate with the market in that particular to that particular audience. So you keep the consistency, but how you express it across the different markets would be different. That's a really good example there of the localization in itself.

[00:08:47] So how is that growth pillar experience and those proof points, how is that aligned in China versus Singapore to Australia? Yeah. How do you go about telling that story as you've just done back to perhaps your global stakeholders to say, well, it's different here? Yes, it's the same pillar, but this is why we have to change it. How do you go about that process? Yes.

[00:09:13] For me, it really does come down to the research and whether you're doing a lot of research or just a small amount, you know, you've got to back up what you're saying with something. And I think a great way to do that could be some internal focus groups. So you might if you're talking about China, you might do some internal focus groups on China with a particular audience. And you can look at, OK, what does growth mean here? And what does it mean to you?

[00:09:40] What do you think about working at this organization when we talk about growth? And then you back that. You obviously have that data then to go to your stakeholders and say, we need to be pushing this. Yeah. But you're not losing. The important thing is, and I think why a lot of organizations will just say, here's the employer brand. Take it. Run with it. Is you're not you don't have to lose the consistency.

[00:10:08] You don't have to go completely the other way and say, OK, here you go. Because you can either have it very restricted. So it ends up being very generic everywhere. Or you can have it where you say, give the local teams the autonomy to do what they want with it, so to speak. And then it gets completely reinvented and you lose any consistency that was there. And then that feel for what it would be like to work at that organization kind of gets lost. Yeah.

[00:10:36] I think it's the saying of find the freedom in the framework comes up a lot. Yeah. And it's true. Flexible framework. Flexible framework. But having a role in somebody like yourself to help then govern that framework to make sure, to your point, it doesn't suddenly become too fragmented or diluted everywhere. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You can end up with all sorts of things. You can end up with markets developing their own logos or their own slogans. Or you've got to have some restrictions there.

[00:11:03] I'm curious about how you educate your stakeholders abroad who have handed down the EVP and how you manage that conversation and relationship. Are you advising people just rip the Band-Aid off? How do you let them know that it's just inconsistent with what you experience in this local market?

[00:11:26] So I think it's actually been a bit easier for me because, not easy, but because I did 10 years in London working with global organizations, but from a very central point of view to 10 years in Singapore where maybe when I first started my journey here, I maybe was of a similar mindset to the people in the UK would have been.

[00:11:55] So you have to be able, if you're going to speak to your stakeholders, you've got to have the credibility in what you're saying. So actually, for me, having experienced the different markets and worked with different stakeholders across these, I really can have that influence. And I know why it's important to have a different message in Malaysia, for example, when you're trying to hire technology candidates in Malaysia.

[00:12:23] Or even, you know, to a certain extent, what that recruitment process should look like in those markets too. Because it all comes down to, you've got to be confident in what you're saying. You have research again. So a lot of stakeholders love a bit of research.

[00:12:50] I'll be honest, you know, you throw some data at them. But then also you share, you can also share successes of other campaigns that you've worked on or other, what other organizations are doing in the local markets. And you talk about, I mean, if I'm trying to think of an example.

[00:13:14] So when I was working in-house, I think we had done a big campaign in India for like a shared services kind of roles. And then we were moving a lot of technology roles to the same market.

[00:13:32] So having the experience of how that had worked with the shared services roles and, you know, the platforms that you should be using and what resonates in the market was really helpful. But also to share how successful that campaign was because it was extremely successful in terms of the number of applications and the number of hires.

[00:13:54] And, you know, just from an employer brand point of view, the awareness that was raised of the brand was incredible. And so having that there already, when you then come to speak to your technology stakeholders, which were spread across the globe, you had some in India, but you had a lot still in the UK and the US. Just to show, you know, this is how the funnel works. We always talk about that funnel and employer branding. And then this is a great example of what we've done.

[00:14:27] Then you bring them on board. You also set expectations. So you do have to be careful because you obviously can't promise it's going to be exactly the same as it was for them because it's a different audience. But essentially, you know, it should be and it was. But it helps to use real life examples. I think that's key.

[00:14:45] That's what really helps to bring it to life, the difference of what a localized execution can look like based on research, based on insights versus the global toolkits and brands that we still follow, but how it can translate locally. And I think that's a really great point of wrapping up those little case studies to then showcase back to your stakeholders, back to the business. If you need their sponsorship or funding of what you could get to. Yeah.

[00:15:13] I think if the brief is there, the insights there and the timelines. Yeah. But you also just talked about, I think, different layers of localization, whether it's the narrative, whether it's the platforms, how you want to execute the campaign, the recruitment process and journey and funnel that's right for that part of the business or the country. I don't know if there's somewhere there you want to delve into a little bit more examples of where you found a really unique nuance because it is different in that market.

[00:15:42] And that's why you've had to change it based on narrative or creative platforms, because I think quite often people think of localization and it's a creative localization. You just need to change the creative. Yeah. And that's part of it, but not necessarily all of it. So I think a really good example of that would be if we take China, for example. So platforms are completely different in China, as you know.

[00:16:10] You can't even I mean, you wouldn't even be advertising on LinkedIn anymore if you want to reach an audience in China. And so it's being able to utilize those platforms. It's important that you have someone in China really to be able to do this. And to if let's let's use WeChat as an example. I know there's plenty of others now.

[00:16:34] But WeChat, you know, you have what your LinkedIn page might look like. From a global point of view to what your WeChat page would look like is very, very different. So. Again, it comes down to education. How do you educate people that have never used WeChat, don't know what it is to show them actually this is the be all and end all that, you know, people use this for everything.

[00:17:02] But paying taxes, for paying food bills, for absolutely everything. Jobs. They apply through WeChat. So I had to do that in one of my roles where we had to look at integrating the ATS. So you're right. It's not just a OK, this is going to look good and we can look at how we execute it there. But it's if you want to be really successful in some markets, you've got to really, really make it local. Yeah.

[00:17:32] And for the employee branders who are not just focused on attraction, more those recruitment marketing activities, but focused more on internal, whether it be retention, attrition, attention to candidate experience, the ones that are the real custodians of the brand, whether it goes high and low.

[00:17:51] So how does that impact them if the employee brand isn't aligned and what could they be doing to communicate to global to get it right? So the relationship that employer branding teams have with internal teams like brand and marketing and communications and recruiters has to be strong.

[00:18:18] And it's actually a very difficult one to get right. Two examples I can give you of where we have, I have worked with internal teams and it's been successful. So one, we were developing an EVP and at the same time, internally, the communications team were coming up with their new values. OK.

[00:18:46] The confusion internally with them was, well, hold on a minute. You can't do your EVP because we're doing this and it should be the same. So we had to take it right back to scratch. You know, your values are different. That's what you stand for as an organization. But your EVP. Incorporates the values. Incorporates the values and it's how we talk to the external market. And so we actually ended up working together on sharing research.

[00:19:15] They were doing their own internal research. We shared the research that we'd done externally and internally. And it ended up being very nice and seamless and you could see the connection between the two. But there was a lot of education at the beginning of that conversation. A lot. Yeah. With lots of different people. Yeah. And I can imagine that would be even harder if they're a distance away. Yes. Yes. And again, bringing in that local.

[00:19:43] Because when these values are created, they're generally created from the head office. CEO, executive. Exactly. So also bringing in that that has to be, you've got to have some local nuances in there. It's got to resonate with everybody. And I mean, that was a success. So that did work. And then also when we're talking about, you know, we can do a lot externally. We can make everything look pretty. We can attract the right people.

[00:20:14] We can do everything up and to a point. So when they hit apply, a lot of the time that then just goes to the recruitment team who might not have anything to do with the employer brand. You know, sometimes it's very disjointed in organizations. Sometimes it's in the same team. Sometimes it's not. And so it's really important to bring them on the journey as well. So one of the things that I like to do is develop like a recruiter toolkit.

[00:20:42] So when there is a big campaign, you put together a recruit, a recruiter toolkit, which shows you how to talk to candidates, what we're saying externally, because you want it to be authentic when people go through that recruitment process as well. And even just simple things like what, because a lot of the time we get recruiters, especially locally, I'm not I'm not I didn't experience it so much in the UK and the US.

[00:21:10] But in the local markets in Asia, a lot of the time the recruiters are really keen to get involved and post something on LinkedIn or, you know, what can we do? Which is great. So we need to equip them. We don't want them just posting anything they like on LinkedIn, which isn't going to be consistent with what we're trying to say. The gatekeeper. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's some, you know, there's some guidelines to follow.

[00:21:36] We'll give you we'll equip you with the information that you need to follow it, but also to help you do your job. And to localize it to that point, right? So even understanding that that broader narrative and context, it's their role when they're talking to a candidate of talking about that in moment in the function of hiring for in their country. In that country. Yeah.

[00:21:59] That has that huge opportunity to translate and make that relevant and connect to the candidate they're talking to. Yeah. So I think they're also a medium, a different platform, right, to localize in. I agree. It's so important. Yeah. To get right. I'm generally excited about this one. If you work in talent acquisition or employee brand, you would have come across James Ellis.

[00:22:22] Four books, over 15 years of experience, one of the most recognized employee brand authority voices in the world. On September 2nd, he's coming to Melbourne for the first time ever. He'll be talking about how to be choosable, how to be different in a market that's super competitive. If you're in TA or employer brand, or you're a CPO looking for differentiation, this is the most valuable afternoon that you'll have this year.

[00:22:52] Tickets are in sale now. Don't sleep on this. How do you dress down a hook or a slogan so that it's more meaningful? So you could do, so when you, if you are localizing a messaging or you could run some tests, you could do some focus groups and say, does this resonate? Does this resonate?

[00:23:17] Or, you know, you can do some A-B testing in markets to see what's going to perform better. Which I would recommend that everybody does do that, by the way. Like, it's very important. You don't just go out with one message and think, oh, yeah, that's doing well. You know, have switch images around, headlines around and see what's working.

[00:23:40] I think that's a really interesting point because then you can also demonstrate to your stakeholders locally that you are listening, you understand there's differences. And obviously, you're always fine-tuning it, optimizing it for the market. And again, I think that's another really great example because your A-B testing might result in one version being fantastic. Yeah. Which could be the complete opposite of what's being run in the US, for example. Yeah, exactly. And again, there's your proof points of the need behind it. Yeah.

[00:24:07] And quite often, I imagine, I know I've had experiences in the past where local stakeholders have quite firmly said, don't like it, it's not landing. Yeah. And they want to build on it with you. But also having that stakeholder in your corner, back to global, can also be quite a powerful point in addition to the research to say, well, the local head of HR or TA or comms.

[00:24:32] Also believes the same point can be quite a powerful tool, I think, to help you mobilize what you want to change. So have you also had some experiences or other ways you've managed to get buy-in to build it with you in market? Yeah. I think if I think in-house experience, agency, you're always looking for buy-in for everything.

[00:24:57] But in-house, I think sometimes you do have to request budget, for example, from teams. They might have a hiring need. It might not be seen as important globally, but to them it is. So you want to help, but you also need them to give you budget.

[00:25:19] So it's, yeah, everything that you've just said, talking about what we can do, how we do it, what we've done in the past and securing that budget. And then, you know, with stakeholders, it's really important not to forget that they're there. So once something's live, you know, they're getting the applications in, but you're kind of, they're not connected.

[00:25:43] So it's really important to stay connected with them and keep them up to date with the campaign because, you know, they might want to put more budget into it. Or, you know, you want to prove that your money, their money is helping them to achieve their objectives. I think that's a great point for all employer brand teams because so often we're managing multiple projects and campaigns. You're completely right.

[00:26:10] Once it's kind of campaigns finished or kind of in motion, you don't, you're right that you step back and you prioritize the next, obviously, hiring need or campaign to work on. But those guys will become your ambassadors and advocates moving forward. Do you need exactly that? So, you know, they'll be able to speak to your expertise and share what you've done.

[00:26:32] The thing that I find we're always having to do in employer branding is talk about ourselves internally because it's not understood exactly what we do. You're saving the company money. That's exactly it. We are. We are. We're saving the money on agencies. I think you have to be able to self-promote internally in employer branding.

[00:27:00] So what lands when you do that? Because I can imagine if you don't localize your messages, it's expensive and not just in terms of revenue but time. Time's precious to us. So how do you communicate that message? Do you know what? I think with town halls, you can share town halls so you can share with the local market what you're doing. But I think it's about getting them excited.

[00:27:28] And localizing your EVP goes to more than just having it resonate with that local market. It makes your current employees in those markets feel part of something. So when you are talking about it and you're talking about the success of a campaign or they're seeing billboards outside with real people that work in their office on them, they get excited and they feel the passion for working for an organization that cares about them.

[00:27:56] And that in turn helps your EVP and your employer brand and your values and your retention. Attrition. Attrition and retention, which hits the bottom line. Yeah. People feel empowered. I know a really good moment of some of the projects that we've been part of when people get promotions. It's a great time to be able to hear their story and amplify that because it's hard to get a promotion. Yeah. And they've got crooked ways to be able to get that promotion.

[00:28:26] And also to show, you know, if you're if in your employer brand you're talking about, you know, you've probably sat in interviews before and they've said, you know, we're great here. We can move. People jump from different departments and move around and we really support that. But it's being able to tell that story. So, you know, it's all very well just going out and say we support this. But, you know, if you can say, well, you know, David did.

[00:28:53] He started as an apprentice and he moved into a completely different department. And you can tell that whole story. It makes people people can visualize themselves there. Absolutely. Internal mobility is a big thing. And a huge reduction in cost if you're able to shift skill sets instead of recruiters having to start from scratch. Yeah. An employee brand absolutely impacts that.

[00:29:17] It impacts it from and that's what we were just talking offline, the importance of not just reporting into talent functions, but also internal comms. And the rubber can really hit the road from an impact perspective internally, not just to improve the candidate experience, but impact retention. Yeah. Yeah. And that's important because people go to things now like Glassdoor and Indeed and look at the reviews.

[00:29:46] And reviews are just as important as if you're going to pick a restaurant that you're going to eat out in. You know, people were doing that now for jobs. And so if you're giving your current employees the best experience, they're your ambassadors for life. Even when they leave, they're your ambassadors. And so again.

[00:30:08] And so again. You can look at reviews.

[00:30:38] You can look at what reviews have been left since we've run this campaign, if you're including reviews as part of the campaign. And what made that campaign a success? So was the objective to raise brand awareness? Was the objective to increase applications? Was it the quality of hire? And then put that in a case study, share the content that's in a case study.

[00:31:03] You can also, another good thing if you want, because we were talking as well about local employees becoming your ambassadors as well. So you could look at putting a content hub together, like an internal content hub where people can go in and they can share some stories themselves on their own LinkedIn.

[00:31:24] Because the organic LinkedIn posts, they perform sometimes much better than anything you can pay for. And you're seeing the right people. If it's people sharing it to their own networks, you know, essentially they're probably the people that you want to attract as well. Why do you think that is, that content from employees hits home more than? Because it's more authentic, I think. You know, a lot of us are very cynical when we see adverts nowadays.

[00:31:54] I know I am. Maybe because I work in this industry as well. But, you know, you see something and you think, oh, that's sponsored. Someone's paid for me to see that. Whereas if it's coming from an employee, there's no money behind it. They genuinely mean what they're saying. Then it's much more authentic and you get more of a feel for the culture. And it can cut through more as well. I think on top of that point of, yeah, being more cynical of adverts or overly polished ones.

[00:32:23] There's also now this layer of AI content too. Yeah. That's you would less likely to expect to see from an organic employee. So then again, it resonates more. It can reach more people more likely to engage with it. Because it might be cutting through the corporate content, which is still important. AI content, which could be coming from anywhere now. And then the employee piece. AI is like taking over my feed. Exactly.

[00:32:52] So the importance of having assets in summary of internal stories can be leveraged to communicate the global EVP and how disconnected it is. Yeah. Exactly. I think we find that talent, you mentioned earlier, Jenny, around how they're essentially looking for evidence. They hear the story, but then they want to understand it and see it in action locally.

[00:33:21] So seeing an employee in that Malaysia office doing the tech role and hearing about their experience is what will land better than that global story, that narrative. Exactly. And, you know, I think the other thing that's really important is when you are telling stories, because there's going to be stories globally, but when you are telling stories to local market, you do want to use local people.

[00:33:47] You do want to know that if I go and work in this Malaysia office, that could be me or I'm going to be working with this person. And they're happy to show their face. So, you know, it must be a good company to work for. Whereas if you're getting a lot of corporate content, which might sound nice, a bit fluffy, and you might think, oh, yeah, they seem like a good company to work for. You know, you don't you don't know that from looking at a LinkedIn post.

[00:34:13] I think another thing, Instagram, people will go to Instagram now to look at what life is like to work somewhere. And your Instagram content has to be a mixture. You've got to include local content on there and it can't just all be coming from a corporate level. And that's where you see things like.

[00:34:35] Volunteering days or staff events, and you can also showcase employee stories on there, too, but you'd probably want to do that in a different way. But think about all these platforms. And again, to the local platforms, what local platforms should we be on that's going to have the same impact. When you were working in London, were you was a real education coming to Singapore?

[00:35:05] And what were some of the learnings that you reflect on? So. Yes, it was. I'd obviously I'd worked with global clients in London and so touched on a few projects in Asia, mainly, I think, Hong Kong and Japan. Japan is a tough market, though. So I think coming to Singapore and working with local clients across lots of different markets.

[00:35:34] It really made me appreciate how different the markets are. And, you know, a lot of the time when you're getting the message from the US or the UK, it's OK, go and deliver this in Asia. You know, Asia isn't a country like it's you know, it's not a market on its own. There's so many markets made up that make up Asia.

[00:35:57] And just appreciating how different each of those markets is and trying to get to grips and understand those markets. And you you can do it by looking online. You can, you know, do your research that way. But talking to people in those markets is the best way. So for me, I would. Get to know my state at the time I was an agency side, so I'd get to know my clients in the different markets and have a session with them

[00:36:26] where I really can understand what their challenges are, what their successes are. Because the only way that you can be strategic or give them advice on what they should do is to really understand where they're coming from. And then so then that works when you're looking at the other way, educating your stakeholders at a global level. You've got to help them understand.

[00:36:51] So for anyone who needs to communicate over the UK or the US or maybe somewhere else, what's what what direction can you give them to have a really meaningful conversation? I think don't go in with a yeah, I know everything.

[00:37:15] I know it's difficult, but we'll be able to sort it out, you know, really go in and really want to understand and show that you care. And it is important. And, you know, a lot of these markets will sometimes just feel like an afterthought where cultural differences haven't been taken into account. Like, for example, if you're using red writing or black and white imagery in certain markets, what that might mean.

[00:37:43] They really show a genuine interest in getting it right, because then you've got your stakeholders on board right from the start. I can. Yeah, I I'd like to build on that because I've seen, for example, where perhaps you can just go in straight out and all guns blazing. Here's the product. Let's roll it out without taking that time to. Yeah, to listen and really understand the needs, but also the local ways of doing things.

[00:38:12] Who do you need to speak to? How to build those relationships? And I know I've certainly had experiences where that you've seen that happen and you think, yeah, we've brought it out to Asia over there. And then you come to Asia and you realize it didn't even land. No, it's in a folder in someone's inbox. Yeah. And they've actually gone off and done done their own thing as a result, because they had such a blanket approach. They weren't brought in on that journey. It's that whole effort has been lost. That's what I was going to say. It's all about that connection as well.

[00:38:41] So if that and that did used to happen a lot. So these markets would be completely forgotten about and just left to their own devices. And so that doesn't only then lend to having an inconsistent employer brand out in the market, but it also stops those employees in those markets feeling like part of the same organization. They almost feel like they're in a different organization completely.

[00:39:10] And the number of times that people have said that to me, you know, when I've worked with clients and I've said. OK, we need to localize this EVP employer brand. And the client said, well, no, we that's not us. We don't we're like a completely different company to what they would be saying in such and such market.

[00:39:36] And so. That brings us back to the point at the beginning where we're saying the importance of bringing people, bringing the markets on the journey right from the beginning when you're developing the EVP. So they've had an input and they feel like part of the they feel like their opinion matters because it should. And they're part of the same organization. Yeah. Partner early and often. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, we see that disconnect, as you say, right. The global picture people join and it's completely different.

[00:40:06] And I think the other thing with with Asia potentially as well, which is how it's been transforming over the years you've been here is typically the markets in Asia growth markets for most organizations these days. So rather than this this area over here that sometimes is neglected or forgotten about or gets that blanket approach, you've got huge growth markets here now that are typically driving really important revenue streams for organizations.

[00:40:31] And I think that has really potentially helped to elevate the need and the importance to support the growth, which is the people, which is the hiring and therefore the a little bit more attention to it. So I know previous roles, you know, we've talked to that a lot more as well. And I imagine in your experience, that's that's helped. And perhaps have you seen examples where you've been able to accelerate your support in those growth markets because of that?

[00:40:59] Yeah, it has. It has it has helped. I think. If I think in my experience, I think India was one of the first that was suddenly this growth market and no one had really paid India any attention. We still hired there. We still did stuff there, but it wasn't seen as, you know, we need to put some effort in. So I think that has helped. But I think what helps now is.

[00:41:29] Bringing that those markets in an earlier date and not being on the back foot like shit, we've got to hire 200 people in six months and then suddenly panic. OK, we've got to do everything. We've got to understand the market. We've got to research the talent that's available. We've got to look at localizing the EVP, you know, it should be part of a bigger strategy. Yeah. Well, it's a fascinating topic.

[00:41:58] I feel like we could talk about it for quite some time. Any final questions? I'd say, do you have any tips to people who are looking just who are starting out that journey around localization? Could be a large organization or small. Based on your learning experience in the past, perhaps when things have gone wrong. What would be one or two tips? So I think if you're just starting out and looking at that localization, then you need to.

[00:42:26] Take it back to basics and it's got to come down to that education because you're going to if you're in a market in Asia, the likelihood is that you're needing to educate your global stakeholders. So really take the time to put together case studies to demonstrate any research you can find. Do some internal focus groups.

[00:42:50] Do some stakeholder interviews with internal stakeholders to understand, you know, what are the challenges in these markets? Because that's what you probably need to start with. And. You've got to just put in the effort to educate your stakeholders, I think. Yeah. And it can be a bit tedious because there's probably a lot of stakeholders and getting time with them is also difficult, but it's worth it in the end.

[00:43:19] And that's a great way to end the episode. Thanks for joining and thanks for sharing your story. Thank you. Thanks for having me.